BCA 2020 Demographics Report

[mikem]

Many people think there must be something wrong with us for wanting to go caving...

There's nothing to stop people trying to encourage more participation, except the argument that increased numbers will result in more damage to the caves (& the fact that current huts can't accommodate vast increases in numbers - however, hardly any are operating at capacity).

 

[ChrisJC]

I'm going to hypothesise that the data will show that there aren't many black people who go caving (what is that threshold?). I will also hypothesise that this is deemed worthy of remedial action.

I am curious to know two things:
1. How do you find out the true reason(s) why that is?
2. What do you do about it? (do you base your actions on 1. above, or do you assume you know the reasons and act on those?)

Could it ever be accepted that there is a deficit, but there is a perfectly equal opportunity to go caving for everybody, regardless of skin colour? Or do we preclude that option?

Chris.

 

[mikem]

Main factor is they don't see others like them doing the activity - there have been many studies for other sports, so we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Surely the whole point of clubs is to be with like minded people, so the hardest part is getting the right person involved to snowball that.

 

[nobrotson]

The "it's their culture" reasoning AKA "there's nothing wrong with me there's something wrong with them" is an interesting one. I wonder if it's proponents in this thread have any evidence to back it up besides the anecdotal and, further, whether they think it's a good excuse for inaction?

Agree that the 'it's their culture' argument is illusory. The presence of thriving caving communities in a whole wealth of places outside the global north (Indonesia and middle eastern states such as Lebanon, Iraq and Iran come to mind as immediate examples I know of) demonstrate this.

Culture is constantly evolving. As David Graeber said, 'the world is something that we make; we could just as easily make it differently'.

 

[PeteHall]

Culture is constantly evolving.

Yes, but evolution is a slow process, that occurs naturally over time, when given the right conditions.

Our job is to provide the right conditions.

 

[nobrotson]

Yes, but evolution is a slow process, that occurs naturally over time, when given the right conditions.

Our job is to provide the right conditions.

I know it's 'our job to provide the right conditions', that's exactly what the David Graeber quote means. And cultural change often doesn't occur naturally but is forced by external actions (climate change and colonialism are obvious ones).

When you argue that 'cultural differences' are the reason for demographic differences in caving as compared to the population as a whole, you seem to be manufacturing an excuse for a lack of change. What I was trying to say was unless the 'cultural differences' excuse is challenged caving will not change at all. Which is exactly what appears to be happening from Rostams report, since cavers are an ageing demographic with few newcomers.

 

[nearlywhite]

Might be easier to start a new topic asking for feedback.

On why comparing the data is relatively pointless - it's such a small number that you can't tell if results are significant or even if they are representative. The other corollary is that the number of cavers is so small that you already have a fairly good handle on the percentages, as you know a significant proportion personally.

It's a significant sample of an insignificant population seems to be what you're saying. It's a significant population to me and anything we can do to anticipate the challenges the community might face would be a good thing?

The 'I know a good proportion of all cavers' is a reason why many organisations in caving are remarkably out of touch.

 

[mikem]

But you can do that by other means than collecting almost meaningless data. The sample is so small that one person deciding to fill it in one year & not the next will affect results.

 

[cavetroll]

Cracking news everyone, the old white men have sorted it all out. "I see no problem" & "why bother collecting data?". Great job, we can all go home.

Christmas wishlist perhaps?
https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-be-an-antiracist/ibram-x-kendi/9781847925992

 

[JoshW]

But you can do that by other means than collecting almost meaningless data. The sample is so small that one person deciding to fill it in one year & not the next will affect results.

Would love to hear your thoughts on these alternate methods which will collect larger ?more meaningful? sets of data?

 

[PeteHall]

Cracking news everyone, the old white men have sorted it all out. "I see no problem" & "why bother collecting data?". Great job, we can all go home.

Christmas wishlist perhaps?
https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-be-an-antiracist/ibram-x-kendi/9781847925992

I suppose you don't see the irony of making a racist (and agist/ sexist) comment to support anti-racism?

 

[mikem]

Would love to hear your thoughts on these alternate methods which will collect larger ?more meaningful? sets of data?

A survey would collect more useful data, not that that's saying much.

 

[cap n chris]

Sorry to post on my personal account but will do so until the auto post works.

The report is available here: https://british-caving.org.uk/demographics-report/

I'd be very interested in hearing people's takes on it.
Rostam
BCA P&I

My inexpert cursory glancing led me to presume:

In about 20 years time there will be about one-third the number of cavers there are now and...
Most elder cavers are WAAAY more fit and healthy than the general populace in that age range.

Neither of which is a surprise.

 

[JoshW]

Would love to hear your thoughts on these alternate methods which will collect larger ?more meaningful? sets of data?

A survey would collect more useful data, not that that's saying much.

Err would a survey collect more data? This would be like a survey but every member is automatically prompted at renewal to complete it, likely resulting in higher completion rates..

 

[2xw]

This might be useful for the people in this thread:
https://www.khanacademy.org/math/statistics-probability/designing-studies#sampling-methods-stats

You may also want to consider the book "Exploratory Data Analysis" by Tukey as a counterpoint to the old "we must have a hypothesis before we collect/examine data" that is taught at A level/undergrad.

The sort of data collection that Josh is proposing might be very useful, and you might not know how useful until you collect it. It might be useless: only one way to find out. Whatever happens it will be privacy compliant anyways, there's no secret conspiracy. If you're thoroughly opposed, don't provide it.

 

[mikem]

But you already know it will be a tiny number & will have no statistical significance...

 

[JoshW]

Based on what, 4 people on ukcaving not wanting to give it?

 

[FionaH]

Cracking news everyone, the old white men have sorted it all out. "I see no problem" & "why bother collecting data?". Great job, we can all go home.

Christmas wishlist perhaps?
https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-be-an-antiracist/ibram-x-kendi/9781847925992

I suppose you don't see the irony of making a racist (and agist/ sexist) comment to support anti-racism?

Are you being systemically oppressed by cavetroll's comment, Pete?

I doubt it.

 

[mikem]

Based on what, 4 people on ukcaving not wanting to give it?

On my knowledge of statistics & the British Canoeing results from a membership more than 5 times that of BCA. The unknown errors will be much larger than the samples.

 

[PeteHall]

Cracking news everyone, the old white men have sorted it all out. "I see no problem" & "why bother collecting data?". Great job, we can all go home.

Christmas wishlist perhaps?
https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-be-an-antiracist/ibram-x-kendi/9781847925992

I suppose you don't see the irony of making a racist (and agist/ sexist) comment to support anti-racism?

Are you being systemically oppressed by cavetroll's comment, Pete?

I doubt it.

No, clearly I am not. Neither would it be systemically oppressive if you replaced the word "white" for the word "black" in the comment however I'm sure that nobody would argue that it was racist if you did.

Making a derogatory comment based on someone's skin colour is racist. This hardly benefits a discussion about inclusivity.