BCA Regional Anchor installers technical forum - Last call for interested participants.

Last call for any interested parties to attend this technical forum on a really important subject.
Details and booking here:


Regards

Ian Patrick
CNCC Training Officer
 

CNCC

Well-known member
We'd really encourage anyone who is already involved in anchor installation, from any region of the UK, to participate in this.

We have 10 people currently attending, which is great, but there are still spaces available.

It would be great to ensure representation from each regional council, so any knowledge can then be shared nationally.

This is particularly relevant now that the BCA has invested heavily in the IC anchor as the primary stainless steel anchor for use across the UK. This workshop is a great opportunity for installers to share knowledge, techniques, experiences, and to ensure greater harmony in how these anchors are installed nationally, including choice of resin, best practices, etc.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
This is particularly relevant now that the BCA has invested heavily in the IC anchor as the primary stainless steel anchor for use across the UK.
Certainly, I would imagine, by number of anchors installed. Which regions are using IC anchors these days?
 

MarkS

Moderator
I'm not sure it's quite correct to say the IC anchor is the "primary stainless steel anchor for use across the UK". The BCA had (/have) stocks of IC anchors and BP anchors, and either can be installed as part of the anchor scheme by any region. It is up to individual regions as to which they prefer. I believe CNCC favour the IC anchor and DCA favour the BP anchors. I am unsure for the other regions.
 

CNCC

Well-known member
MarkS; We stand corrected and did not realise that BCA/DCA still held stocks of the Bolt Product (BP) anchor.

Of course, one of the aims of this workshop are to get people from all regions together, to help clear up these kinds of misunderstandings, and to discuss the pros/cons of the anchor types :)
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
I recall CSCC not wishing to use BP anchors on conservation grounds. Their concern was that the required hole size was so large as to possibly cause serious problems in attempting to reuse the anchor location. I am not sure where that got to over the past 7 / 8 years. But Simon Wilson's anchor extractor design looked like a device to minimise the worst concerns of CSCC which were based on testing in a quarry with shot blasted rock. I don't have a photo to hand but extracting one sample using the BCA anchor puller caused the rock to spall for over 1 metre in one direct, almost as bad as slate!
 

pwhole

Well-known member
DCA bought quite a lot of BP anchors not that long ago for the installation team to use.
 

Babyhagrid

Well-known member
I'm not sure it's quite correct to say the IC anchor is the "primary stainless steel anchor for use across the UK". The BCA had (/have) stocks of IC anchors and BP anchors, and either can be installed as part of the anchor scheme by any region. It is up to individual regions as to which they prefer. I believe CNCC favour the IC anchor and DCA favour the BP anchors. I am unsure for the other regions.
are the IP and BP anchors the round Pbolts and the rounded square newer ones? which is which?
 

MarkS

Moderator
 

CNCC

Well-known member
Thanks MarkS, you beat us to that! The BP (Bolt Products) anchors are one manufacturer example of the P-type anchors.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Cambrian are using Bolt Products anchors.

There are pros and cons to different anchor types... IC anchors are easier to pull out while BP anchors are probably some of the most difficult anchors to remove. Some people may see this as a feature rather than a bug, of course...

BP, Petzl etc. anchors are EN959 rated, tested by external bodies (as they are commercial anchors). IC anchors meet the standard but aren't sold so haven't been type-certified by an external body. BP anchors are extensively used by climbers throughout the UK (a much larger market, I suspect, than cavers). The BP anchors also have the benefit of being very cheap (about £5 each ish) and much more resistant to poor gluing because their twisted leg design means there is a lot more mechanical resistance to extraction than other anchors (can get >10kN axially and >20kN radially without resin, which is pretty impressive - http://www.bolt-products.com/StrengthandTests.htm ).

But pulling a BP anchor out can damage the rock (since they can take a ridiculous amount of force to extract) so that you can't reuse the hole. The manufacturer has an extraction technique but it involves water-cooled core drills and is unlikely to be practical underground. IC anchors are intentionally not too difficult to pull out, so don't cause as much/any damage allowing the hole to be reused as I understand it. I believe IC anchors have been reinstalled in old P-bolt holes; I don't know if any IC anchors have been replaced yet? Different regions may make different decisions about how important this is.

And (to get back on topic) I'm therefore looking forward to this workshop because I've only been trained on BP anchor installation, and it's always good to get different views and see different practices :)
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
From the meetings I attended when IC anchors were discussed the main advantage was that they were considered a better conservation option. They can be drilled out and extracted and the hole could be reused. BP anchors fill the entire hole so can't be drilled so easily and extraction often led to the spalling of the surface rock. You only need a 12mm hole for IC anchors whilst a BP requires a 16mm+ hole I think.
I also understand that by the time the IC anchor was approved for use and a suitable manufacturer found, the BCA had already bought a stock of 2000 BP anchors which needed using up.
Then again I might be wrong :)
 

JRL

Member
From the meetings I attended when IC anchors were discussed the main advantage was that they were considered a better conservation option. They can be drilled out and extracted and the hole could be reused. BP anchors fill the entire hole so can't be drilled so easily and extraction often led to the spalling of the surface rock. You only need a 12mm hole for IC anchors whilst a BP requires a 16mm+ hole I think.
I also understand that by the time the IC anchor was approved for use and a suitable manufacturer found, the BCA had already bought a stock of 2000 BP anchors which needed using up.
Then again I might be wrong :)
They can be pulled straight out of the hole if required and the same hole re used, without drilling around it. Removing them doesn’t spall the surface of the rock.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Ah yes, the 2000 BP anchors which we ordered were found to be made from 304 stainless steel and so were scrapped apart from a few used for training and tests. I am unsure how many 316 SS anchors arrived in their place and I don't know if DCA are actually purchasing more or just using up the old stock. My memory is that the IC anchors were developed after the BP order was placed.

The surface spalling is I think a reflection that all of the test work on BP anchors was done in various quarries where as Simon Wilson's IC anchors were tested on natural exposures. The state of the rock in those quarries was almost certainly affected by the blasting process during the quarry's life. The blasting would have placed micro fractures in the rock thus making it spall under loads to extract anchors. But I accept that it is almost impossible to extract a BP anchor without enlarging the 16 mm diameter hole. Though whilst I have not tested it, I suspect larger holes filled with resin will make little difference to the strength of the anchor. (That is based on Simon's tests with IC anchors in 18 mm holes, see http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/3.html which showed little difference in strength when using different diameter holes.)
 

Pete K

Well-known member
Wasn't it the PECO anchors that came in 304? The Bolt Products BPs have always been 316 I think. We have a dozen PECOs left in a box here and they are visibly less shiny than the BPs. I think it's easy for non-bolters to get mixed up with the P anchor types, so my understanding is these are a 3 generations of BCA 'P' type anchors:

DMM ECO anchor, replaced by....
PECO anchor, which turned out to be a waste of BCA money in 304 steel, which was then replaced by...
Bolt Products BP anchor. Distinct from the other 2 in that it is the only one with a twisted leg design.

The DMMs have DMM stamped in them I think. The PECO are dull grey/silver and have a laser etching with BCA. The BP's that DCA have are stamped 316 and with a unique ID code.

Obviously we now also have the IC anchor on the scheme, but they are only seen in the Dales.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Wasn't it the PECO anchors that came in 304? The Bolt Products BPs have always been 316 I think. We have a dozen PECOs left in a box here and they are visibly less shiny than the BPs. I think it's easy for non-bolters to get mixed up with the P anchor types, so my understanding is these are a 3 generations of BCA 'P' type anchors:
I'm going to start my response by an admission that my memory is failing me and I am not in a position to go back and check all the details. So when DMM announced around 2010 that they were to cease making their P hanger (which has a straight shaft with bent ends). BCA brought up the remaining stock. That kept us going for a few years.

We then started to look for an alternative and an offer was made to us to get batch made in China to the same design. The first batch looked OK but had a problem so a second batch was made. That also had a problem which made us reject the offer. These were the PECO anchors. (See BCA E&T minutes 8/10/11.)

We were then pointed to Bolt Products twisted shaft P anchor (BP anchor). We ordered a trial batch which proved OK. It is not clear to me how or why but we then received a batch of BP anchors made in 304SS. This was at odds with our assessment that we should use 316SS anchors in caves except in high chloride areas such as sea cliffs where an even more Chloride Stress Corrosion Cracking (CSCC) resistant material was required. So we retrieved the 304SS BP anchors (though I fear a few may have been placed) and then acquired 316SS BP anchors. (See BCA E&T minutes 10/11/13.) Subsequently we stepped back and accepted that 304SS BP anchors could be used in agreed locations. (See BCA E&T minutes 5/4/14)

Simon Wilson developed the IC anchor around 2014 and was accepted in 2015. Because of manufacturing constraints, IC anchors were initialy only deployed in the North. But as I recall, thanks to improvements in the manufacturing process, the CNCC agreed to their deployment elsewhere a few years ago.

As I recall, a trial was made with a titanium anchor but this failed. I do not recall if any further work was done by BCA E&T in this area.

If you still have PECO anchors then you should dispose of them. The reason for their rejection was that several in the test batches failed at low forces by metal failure rather than the normal failure mode of extraction from the resin. That makes them even more prone to CSCC (C as in caustic not as in council).

There was also fun with the choice of resin which went through a lot of changes before 'settling down' to the Fischer V 360 S resin which I presume remains the choice to this day.

Another point which arose during that time was routine pull testing of anchors in line with that recommended for EN 795 PPE anchors. What we did not realise is that the heads of the DMM P anchor, the PECO anchor, the BP anchor and the IC anchor all flex at or below 6 kN. So when we got alerts reporting defective anchors in cave due to cracked resin, we ceased the practice. But I recall that DCA claimed to be able to apply a 6kN force without impacting the resin, though how remains a mystery to me.

We also did away with a routine visual inspection program to just rely upon reports from users. And the user inspection criteria was subject to debate when we found that people could not differentiate between movement in their fingers and movement in the anchor when twisting an anchor. (Answer - use a small bar to test for anchor movement.)

I am afraid that I am unable to attend the forum to provide an "old fart's memory" of the past 10 plus years of work on anchors which I observed and participated in. But I did try to ensure the BCA E&T minutes recorded much of the detail and I should have a lot more records on my back up hard drive if any one wishes to delve. Have a good time.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
Thanks for the clarification Bob, I'd not realised there was a first batch from BP that were not in 316, it was before I was involved as an installer with DCA. We've a handful of PECOs left in a box somewhere and I'll cut them up next time I'm at the stores.

When DCA test BPs to 6kN, there is a slight flex to the metal witnessed as 'lift' from the resin. Usually, as the test force is removed the anchor settles back down. Sometimes a very small gap remains between the back of the anchor eye and the cured resin, but the anchor and resin are undamaged. If there is movement after the test, the anchor would be failed and removed, but so far we've not had that. I've seen the same stretch and relax in resin fixed anchors from all the brands I've placed and tested over the years. I would expect an anchor to be permanently deformed from a trial test with its full intended system design load applied (IIRC that is acceptable as long as there is not anchor failure under BS 7883), but not for a proof test of the service load (anticipated real world use load). 6kN is a pretty standard periodical proof test load for industry, and any anchor made for that use should not be affected by that kind of force.
 

Ian P

Administrator
Staff member
Mods- could this thread be split please.

There is some really valuable content here that would be a shame to “lose” under the wrong title.

Thanks
Ian
 
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