Brexit

[Graigwen]

On the way out, it would be good if southern Scotland was handed back to Northumbria where it belongs. Roughly the bit that has Tory MP?s.

Even a statement like this is not really that simple. Years ago I did a lot of research into landholdings in the general area of the south eastern border of Scotland in the 11th to 14th centuries. I was surprised to finds how much the border shifted southwards and northwards at various times, The organisation of what was from time to time the part of the area in Scotland was not all that different from northern Northumbria, but was very different from the Scottish Highlands. When the international border shifted, the peasants did not move, nor usually did their immediate superiors - they merely shifted their allegience from England to Scotland or vice-versa.

On one occasion I found a Scottish noble owning land in the area who was entrusted with leading a negotiating mission on behalf of the Scottish ling to the English king. Some years later when his land was now in England, the same man owned it and was entrusted with leading a negotiating mission on behalf off the English king to the Scottish king.

It is of course true that much of the population of southeastern Scotland is of Anglian descent, but the border is not a racial divide, thank goodness.

.

 

[mikem]

& the Angles / Saxons came from Germany / Denmark:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles

The Normans, although invading from France, were actually of Viking descent - so the "English" have actually always been trying to get out of Europe! 

 

[oldfart]

And the Scots are Irish.

 

[Speleofish]

And vice versa, especially in Ulster...

 

[SamT]

Well it is an essential ingredient in being human, and we are by far the most successful animal species. Clearly there's an evolutionary advantage to being tribal. Otherwise we wouldn't be because I agree it does come with quite a death toll!
I can only guess that those who were not tribal were killed a long time ago and any genetic tendency to be non-tribal has long gone.

Chris.

Ah right.  OK then, makes it all alright.  Mass genecide it is for anyone whos not like me and Chris said it was OK, its in my genes your honor.
I'll just pop out to the shed and polish up the bren gun and check stocks of Zyklon B.  .

 

[pwhole]

I'm definitely not tribal and I'm still here. Though as a Wolstenholme, I can guarantee my original genes are from 'over there', where it's even chillier, and men are men, etc. etc..

The Scottish fishing industry was looking pretty damn pissed off last night on the news, and not just on Channel 4 either.

 

[mikem]

There are more Scots & Irish in America than their home countries & just look how things are going there... (Including Donald's mom)

 

[ChrisJC]

Well it is an essential ingredient in being human, and we are by far the most successful animal species. Clearly there's an evolutionary advantage to being tribal. Otherwise we wouldn't be because I agree it does come with quite a death toll!
I can only guess that those who were not tribal were killed a long time ago and any genetic tendency to be non-tribal has long gone.

Chris.

Ah right.  OK then, makes it all alright.  Mass genecide it is for anyone whos not like me and Chris said it was OK, its in my genes your honor.
I'll just pop out to the shed and polish up the bren gun and check stocks of Zyklon B.  .

I never said it was alright! I said it is how we are!

You can make all sorts of statements about how wrong it is, how bad it is, how it doesn't afflict you, etc. But it is within all of us (regardless of pwholes assertion that it isn't in him which I don't believe).

So politicians and leaders that try to cut across tribal lines risk all sorts drama like Brexit, like Indyref #94, like 1916.

History is absolutely rammed with it. In fact, it is pretty much all of history. My tribe is better than yours, let's sort it out with a war. Trying to magic it away just won't work.

Understanding it and accommodating it is far smarter in my view. Pretending it doesn't exist is doomed to fail. As the EU will ultimately discover.

Chris.

 

[droid]

Nostradamus is in the house! 

 

[ChrisJC]

Nostradamus is in the house! 

I'm happy to be quoted! I'll bet anyone that in 20 years I will have been proven correct!

Chris.

 

[topcat]

The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history I

 

[tony from suffolk]

Nostradamus is in the house! 

I've not checked what Nostradamus had to say about Brexit. He was certainly pretty accurate with his predictions from all those years ago. I was impressed he'd  anticipated that in 1984 the Mini Metro would be offered with a fifth gear option.

 

[Andy Farrant]

Yes, tribalism is endemic as a human condition, but it is possible to support more than one tribe; one can support the school rugby team at one level,  but at the same time support the village quiz team, the local County Cricket Club, the England football team, the UK Olympic squad, and Europe in the Ryder Cup. All different 'tribes'. Fortunately we have resorted to sport to assuage our tribal instincts, which is a good thing. War is never a good idea. And tribalism thrives on ignorance. The EU, for all its faults has helped the various nation states avoid conflict and tribalism by setting up institutions that help resolve issues through improved dialogue and understanding - which is why the UK's axing of the Erasmus scheme is so short sighted. This is a far better approach than sowing division, rivalry and hate which is what certain aspects of the UK media and some politicians seem to enjoy.  Look at Trump - he has done America no favours.

So I don't buy the idea that the EU will neccessarily fail due to tribal rivalries. What is sad about Brexit is that so many people do not think about the wider implications of leaving the European Union.

 

[aardgoose]

If tribalism was an evolutionary adaption, it was was at a time when human society had not developed as it has, assuming that this was a trait that occurred in the human species rather than an ancestor. It certainly didn't apply to large groups. And if it was a trait that was favourable at one time, it doesn't mean it is now. So applying the excuse of tribal instincts to xenophobic, racist and isolationist policies is just that, an excuse. We have the white supremacists appealing to their Norse 'heritage' and subverting northern European runes and myths as symbols of their superiority. Groups boasting of their pure anglo-saxon genes, ignoring the fact as noted above, the anglo-saxons were an immigrant people.

That what may have been an adaption that was advantageous is now exploited by politicians to create readymade 'out groups' and enemies to scapegoat, doesn't make it something that should be accepted, to do so is pandering to the worst of humanity. We have seen what happens to scapegoats before and it isn't pretty. Also ignored is that cooperation was and is still an advantageous behaviour.  But that is conveniently ignored because it doesn't support your prejudices.

We have a government that is set upon creating an artificial cultural divide from mainland Europe to exploit and to evade responsibility for its own failures. Using tribalism to support artificial national boundaries is a poor excuse. History and linguistics demonstrate there is nothing natural about many of these boundaries. It is intellectually dishonest to say the UK is a natural 'tribal' unit, it never has been.

 

[mikem]

Groups of apes will grow to a size where they stretch their local resources & then split off into separate families, sometimes fighting to protect & even extend their territories (as will many other species), it's nothing new - just exacerbated by our over population.

 

[Badlad]

Nostradamus is in the house! 

I'm happy to be quoted! I'll bet anyone that in 20 years I will have been proven correct!

Chris.

How old are you?  .....and how much?

 

[AR]

Nostradamus is in the house! 

I'm happy to be quoted! I'll bet anyone that in 20 years I will have been proven correct!

Chris.

How old are you?  .....and how much?

Funny that long-term bets should get mentioned, there was one came up recently from a confirmed technophobe who made a bet in 1995 that everything would have gone to hell in a handcart by 2020 - https://www.wired.com/story/a-25-year-old-bet-comes-due-has-tech-destroyed-society/

 

[Fulk]

I've a vague recollection that way back in the 50s or 60s some bright spark made a bet that there'd be a man on the moon before the end of the 1960?70s decade . . . at odds of 10,000:1 . . . .

 

[pwhole]

You can make all sorts of statements about how wrong it is, how bad it is, how it doesn't afflict you, etc. But it is within all of us (regardless of pwholes assertion that it isn't in him which I don't believe).

I've spent decades re-programming myself to remove the trait, and it's true - it takes a lot of effort, but it's doable. I would possibly get into a fight to defend the reputation of The 13th Floor Elevators, but that's about it

I would heartily recommend reading some of R. Buckminster Fuller's 'prophesies', as many of his are coming true, and generally assume most of humanity to be a good thing, endlessly improving itself. Utopia or Oblivion and Critical Path, written in the 1960s and the 1980s are stunning books, and suggest all sorts of ways that the world could be made to work better, without any hint of patronising or superior leanings, just good, honest imagination and optimism. He also constantly pointed out that the rate of technological development (measured from the birth of Jesus onwards for convenience) is an exponential curve, and that it's now approaching vertical. This is great, but it does mean that humans have to be able to keep up, otherwise we can suffer 'Future Shock' (see also Alvin Toffler's book of the same name). I suspect this is the root cause of many people's pyscho-socio-economic problems, and why anti-depressants are so damn popular.

I didn't realise that a huge series of lectures he made from 1975, 'Everything I Know' has been made available on the BFI site - I think I just found my background music for the next month

https://www.bfi.org/about-fuller/resources/everything-i-know

 

[StealthYak]

We are extremely privileged in the main.

And yet in huge act of self harm we have been persuaded to harm our economy and reduce our rights for the benefit of a few even more privileged.

Oh and I think you'll find the Oxford/AstraZenica  vaccine is being made available on a not for profit basis - not "given away free".  I know how you don't like exaggerations