Carbide!!!!!

[SamT]

there is the point about black dot soot marks.

If I were to take a spray can of green paint into the cave and sporadically dot the ceiling all over the cave, paying particular attention to pitch heads and squeezes, regardless of any decoration above them, there would be an outcry. And if caught, my fingers would probably be broken at the hands of some angry local cavers.

Green .... Black - what's the difference. :?

 

[erin]

Hi Ben,

The website (and all of users.skynet.be) is blocked in China. Could you post the text, or is there a mirror? Thanks.

 

[whitelackington]

Just done some caving in The Ardeche, first time none of us had carbide.
We met a team of Czech cavers, all on carbide.
They said they were "SHOCKED"
we did not rely on the stuff

 

[cap n chris]

I hope you told them it was effectively off-limits in most caves in Southern Britain for conservation reasons, as well as being laughed at as a sixteenth century light source, largely superceeded by candles and carrots until more enlightened (!) times towards the end of the twentieth century when LEDs came upon the scene, now rightfully asserted as being the light source of champions. 

 

[spikey]

I suspect that some of the members of this forum will not remember the days "before LED".

Carbides still have a place in certain situations eg. true exploration in remote areas where re-charging is not possible - even 40+ hours would have been nowhere near enough on some of the multiple pushing trips I have been on in the Picos.

"Replace the batteries then !" I hear you cry. But then what to with the exhausted ones in the middle of nowhere save take them home and bin them - I would have thought there is an environmental problem here too.

However, I wholeheartedly agree with the condemming of those who chose to dump carbide - again harking back to the Spanish trips, we used to take it out in large BDHs along with other waste products generated  . You think the smell of carbide is bad - try mixing it with sh*t !

Another positive for carbide - with the right film, it's a magnficent light source for underground photography.

 

[menacer]

"Replace the batteries then !" I hear you cry. But then what to with the exhausted ones in the middle of nowhere save take them home back to the nearest town and bin them - I would have thought there is an environmental problem here too.

However, AA batteries are sold world wide, and readily available, carbide is not, shipping carbide out to remote locations isnt that simple....4 little batteries takes up less space per hour of light than carbide, its less fickle to store or transport a battery underground, or change it. Its more hassle to bag up hot spent carbide....


Another positive for carbide - with the right film, it's a magnficent light source for underground photography. :bow: yes

arghh cocked that up, my ramblings are in green.....

 

[graham]

Spent batteries can be carried out of the cave, down the hill and back to civilisation where they can be put in the recycling bin.

Does anyone ever bring the carbide down the hill, even if it does come out of the cave?

Alternatively explorers at the edge of the world can use rechargeables  and solar chargers. 

 

[spikey]

back to the nearest town

However, AA batteries are sold world wide, and readily available, carbide is not, shipping carbide out to remote locations isnt that simple....4 little batteries takes up less space per hour of light than carbide, its less fickle to store or transport a battery underground, or change it. Its more hassle to bag up hot spent carbide....

Unfortunately, a 7 mile walk back down from the camp to the base, then 14 miles driving along a goat track glued to the side of a mountain- so bad it was traversed once on the way in, and once 3 and a half weeks later on the way out. 25kg drum of carbide picked up at the garage on the way up.

Also, on an expedition, and the long trips it entails, carbide = warmth. Can't beat an old Malham generator between the legs, or under the armpits to warm the cockles of your heart in just about any situation.

Spent batteries can be carried out of the cave, down the hill and back to civilisation where they can be put in the recycling bin.

This was, by the way, 20 years ago, and well pre-LED - hence the statement in my previous post on this subject.

Does anyone ever bring the carbide down the hill, even if it does come out of the cave?

Yes. Wouldn't you?

 

[cap n chris]

OT. 

I wrote:

off-limits in most caves in Southern Britain for conservation reasons

This still stands.

UKCaving, remember. 

 

[spikey]

OT?

Sorry, I read the thread title as "Carbide!!!", not "Carbide in the UK"  :ang:

 

[cap n chris]

:-[

Fair comment.

 

[shotlighter]

Spent batteries can be carried out of the cave, down the hill and back to civilisation where they can be put in the recycling bin.

Does anyone ever bring the carbide down the hill, even if it does come out of the cave?

Alternatively explorers at the edge of the world can use rechargeables  and solar chargers. 

As a long time user of carbide I can honestly say I've never disposed of it anywhere other than at home. It's a grand source of light (& heat) & any one who abuses caves by dumping it is an arse.
BTW what's up with clogs? Very comfy & I've found recently a place in Hebden Bridge that still makes 'em - very tempted! The last clog shop round here closed about 15yrs back.
Just because a technology is old, dosn't mean it's rubbish. There is an awfull lot of modern stuff that's utter dross.

 

[cap n chris]

Just because a technology is old, dosn't mean it's rubbish.

Agreed.

There is an awfull lot of modern stuff that's utter dross.

Agreed.

However, on balance and considering many aspects pro/con, LEDs are better than Carbide IMO.

 

[Downer]

Just because a technology is old, dosn't mean it's rubbish.

Agreed.

There is an awfull lot of modern stuff that's utter dross.

Agreed.

However, on balance and considering many aspects pro/con, LEDs are better than Carbide IMO.

Can't speed someone up on a climb with LEDs.

 

[cap n chris]

Can't get kicked in the face for trying to, either.

 

[shotlighter]

Just because a technology is old, doesn't mean it's rubbish.

Agreed.

There is an awfully lot of modern stuff that's utter dross.

Agreed.

However, on balance and considering many aspects pro/con, LEDs are better than Carbide IMO.

Agreed, but I don't have an LED set nor the money to buy one. OTOH I still have an Oldham & 2 carbide sets!
Room for most things as long as  used appropriately & responsably.
Re old technology, I still derive great satisfaction from digging with blackpowder, if that's not an obsolete technology I don't know what is. But it requires a lot of thought compared with HE (which I've also used a lot in the past) & it's very suprising what you can do with very small amounts. Mind you, you get a real smack in the face, when you try to use it inappropriately!!!!

 

[AndyF]

Great, the anti-carbide debate again  Lovin it....

I got rid of my carbide lamps years ago, they suck and have no argueable place in modern caving. The one place for them was long duration trips but the advent of LEDs and disposable batteries (ideally rechargables) has removed that excuse....

LED's dont go out in water.
LED's weigh less for a given light duration (weigh a 4.5v flatpack with 27 hr life vs. 27 hours worth of carbide light)
LED's dont leave a deposit in the cave
LED's dont burn your ropes
LED's dont go out when you crawl
LED's dont smell bad

..but the real killer point is this. For the "nice cavers" that dont dump carbide in the cave, what do you ACTUALLY do with the poisonous spent carbide? Throw it in the bin? If so then it ends up in the environment anyway, leaching out of landfill and into the water table in a slower way, but the result is the same....

Batteries can be disposed of by recycling...

I'd favour a code of practice to remove carbide lighting in all UK caves (Note I say code of practice as a ban is unenforcable in many caves)

Get rid of 'em... 

Ahhh thats better, awaits flaming   

 

[james]

Carbide is band in most South Wales caves, but that does not stop me using mine there.

I know a chap who even uses carbide in old coal mines   

Not that I would recomend that.

There is nothing better in a wet cold cave or mine than the warming glow of a stinky.

 

[Downer]

..but the real killer point is this. For the "nice cavers" that dont dump carbide in the cave, what do you ACTUALLY do with the poisonous spent carbide? Throw it in the bin? If so then it ends up in the environment anyway, leaching out of landfill and into the water table in a slower way, but the result is the same....

Shouldn't be an issue if only dumped in small amounts as practically all of the waste is slaked lime which just neutralises a bit of acid from the other muck that's putrifying in the tip. The bugs in that environment are probably quite well geared to breaking down residual traces of hydrocarbons too. Certainly its a much better solution than polluting a cave, including dumping it water which can't deal with it.

 

[AndyF]

..but the real killer point is this. For the "nice cavers" that dont dump carbide in the cave, what do you ACTUALLY do with the poisonous spent carbide? Throw it in the bin? If so then it ends up in the environment anyway, leaching out of landfill and into the water table in a slower way, but the result is the same....

Shouldn't be an issue if only dumped in small amounts as practically all of the waste is slaked lime which just neutralises a bit of acid from the other muck that's putrifying in the tip. The bugs in that environment are probably quite well geared to breaking down residual traces of hydrocarbons too. Certainly its a much better solution than polluting a cave, including dumping it water which can't deal with it.

Slaked lime isn't poisonous, it's claimed that spent carbide is (and I'm sure its true)..... what is the toxin in it?

These toxins do end up in the environment, recyled batteries do not. Can't see a justification for throwing poison into the environment on the basis that there isn't very much of it!!!

You have to look at the total quantity used per annum, not that individual dumpings are small.....