Carbide!!!!!

[paul]

..but the real killer point is this. For the "nice cavers" that dont dump carbide in the cave, what do you ACTUALLY do with the poisonous spent carbide? Throw it in the bin? If so then it ends up in the environment anyway, leaching out of landfill and into the water table in a slower way, but the result is the same....

Shouldn't be an issue if only dumped in small amounts as practically all of the waste is slaked lime which just neutralises a bit of acid from the other muck that's putrifying in the tip. The bugs in that environment are probably quite well geared to breaking down residual traces of hydrocarbons too. Certainly its a much better solution than polluting a cave, including dumping it water which can't deal with it.

Slaked lime isn't poisonous, it's claimed that spent carbide is (and I'm sure its true)..... what is the toxin in it?

These toxins do end up in the environment, recyled batteries do not. Can't see a justification for throwing poison into the environment on the basis that there isn't very much of it!!!

You have to look at the total quantity used per annum, not that individual dumpings are small.....

Another consideration:

Yes, reduction of the use of carbide lights will lessen the chances of dumped carbide appearing underground but the swing towards helmet-mounted batteries and use of non-rechargables may mean in increase in discarded batteries...

I agree, after being an ardent carbide fan most of the eighties and nineties, that LEDs are an improvement now that you get god light ouput and don't have just that "small yellow spot" with incandescent lights (I use a Stenlight). Plus a LOT less faff!

I do miss the option of sticking a nice, warm Fisma down the front of my oversuit, though!

 

[cap n chris]

but the swing towards helmet-mounted batteries and use of non-rechargables may mean in increase in discarded batteries

I'm not so sure about this. LED lights run at a dim level for a very very long time indeed and anyone owning one is highly likely to continue their trip without needing to change the batteries while underground, probably more likely to think "It's about time I got some new batteries", and change them while above ground thereby discarding the batteries above ground at the same time.

Put another way, unlike traditional light bulbs, batteries powering LED lamps don't run out mid-trip - they just get dim and remain so for a very long time: I don't think it's going to be an habitual occurrence for people to change batteries while underground unless they're on expedition-type trips.

 

[AndyF]

I suspect that some of the members of this forum will not remember the days "before LED".

Carbides still have a place in certain situations eg. true exploration in remote areas where re-charging is not possible - even 40+ hours would have been nowhere near enough on some of the multiple pushing trips I have been on in the Picos.

"Replace the batteries then !" I hear you cry. But then what to with the exhausted ones in the middle of nowhere save take them home and bin them - I would have thought there is an environmental problem here too.

Well you do the same with the spent batteries as you do with the spent carbide, you carry them out of the cave...

...you do bring your spent carbide out don't you?  


And spent carbide weighs more light-for-light than the equivalent in batteries so you are gaining by using batteries.

(4.5 v flatpack 151g giving 27 hours light with a 1 watt LED vs. say, 300g or carbide giving maybe 20 hours, but once spent increases in weight due to water content)


LEDs have simply removed the "expedition" reasoning for carbide.

 

[Cave_Troll]

even if people do decide to change their batteries underground, a battery is more likely to put in a pocket and carried out that a pile of stinking carbide waste.

Its interesting that most people who use carbide will tell you "i like it for these reasons... of course i personally always carry my waste out". someone is obviously dumping,

 

[New Phil]

Carbide is band in most South Wales caves, but that does not stop me using mine there.

James that is a really poor attitude. In fact it is the attitude of the average teenage yob.

The damage that carbide does to a cave system is well proven and if you really are passionate about caving then you should want to see caves protected to make sure that the next generation of cavers gets a fair go.

Have a thought for the people who are going to go down caves in another 5 years or 10 years.

 

[Peter Burgess]

From what I remember from school, commercial 'carbide' is mostly calcium carbide but with a small amount of calcium phosphide present. The calcium carbide reacts with water to generate acetylene which I think is supposed to be odourless, but the phosphide reacts with water to create phosphine PH3 which makes it smell. I wonder what the waste product is from that reaction, and whether that is harmful.

 

[Downer]

From what I remember from school, commercial 'carbide' is mostly calcium carbide but with a small amount of calcium phosphide present. The calcium carbide reacts with water to generate acetylene which I think is supposed to be odourless, but the phosphide reacts with water to create phosphine PH3 which makes it smell. I wonder what the waste product is from that reaction, and whether that is harmful.

Phosphine is certainly poisonous but small amounts are produced naturally by decay. The half-life in the atmosphere is about a day. The end product will be a harmless phosphate. The original reaction producing the phosphine will just create more slaked lime as with carbide.

There will probably be other smelly gases, hydrogen suplhide being the most obvious. The reaction again leaves lime. The gas will be siezed gratefully by bugs, so no real probem there, beside which the amounts involved would be tiny.

 

[paul]

but the swing towards helmet-mounted batteries and use of non-rechargables may mean in increase in discarded batteries

I'm not so sure about this. LED lights run at a dim level for a very very long time indeed and anyone owning one is highly likely to continue their trip without needing to change the batteries while underground, probably more likely to think "It's about time I got some new batteries", and change them while above ground thereby discarding the batteries above ground at the same time.

Put another way, unlike traditional light bulbs, batteries powering LED lamps don't run out mid-trip - they just get dim and remain so for a very long time: I don't think it's going to be an habitual occurrence for people to change batteries while underground unless they're on expedition-type trips.

You're probably right, but I have come across a number of discarded AA cells recently in various locations...

 

[Peter Burgess]

but the swing towards helmet-mounted batteries and use of non-rechargables may mean in increase in discarded batteries

I'm not so sure about this. LED lights run at a dim level for a very very long time indeed and anyone owning one is highly likely to continue their trip without needing to change the batteries while underground, probably more likely to think "It's about time I got some new batteries", and change them while above ground thereby discarding the batteries above ground at the same time.

Put another way, unlike traditional light bulbs, batteries powering LED lamps don't run out mid-trip - they just get dim and remain so for a very long time: I don't think it's going to be an habitual occurrence for people to change batteries while underground unless they're on expedition-type trips.

You're probably right, but I have come across a number of discarded AA cells recently in various locations...

You forgot to type "Which I picked up and carried out".

 

[Peter Burgess]

There you go, another advantage of electrics over carbide. Picking up the rubbish dropped by the 'couldn't care less gang' is a lot easier.

 

[AndyF]

Mmm Phosphine....niiice....

Pure phosphine is odorless, but technical grade phosphine has a highly unpleasant odor like garlic or rotting fish, due to the presence of substituted phosphine and diphosphine (P2H4). Phosphines are also a group of substituted phosphines, with the structure R3P, where other functional groups replace hydrogens. They are important in catalysts where they complex to various metal ions; a chiral metal phosphine complex can catalyze a reaction to give chiral products.

Phosphine is highly toxic; it can easily kill in relatively low concentrations. Because of this, the gas is used for pest control by fumigation. For farm use, it is often sold in the form of aluminium phosphide, calcium phosphide, or zinc phosphide pellets, which yield phosphine on contact with atmospheric water or rodents' stomach acid.

So carbide users are "passive poisoners"....... 

 

[Downer]

Mmm Phosphine....niiice....

Pure phosphine is odorless, but technical grade phosphine has a highly unpleasant odor like garlic or rotting fish, due to the presence of substituted phosphine and diphosphine (P2H4). Phosphines are also a group of substituted phosphines, with the structure R3P, where other functional groups replace hydrogens. They are important in catalysts where they complex to various metal ions; a chiral metal phosphine complex can catalyze a reaction to give chiral products.

Phosphine is highly toxic; it can easily kill in relatively low concentrations. Because of this, the gas is used for pest control by fumigation. For farm use, it is often sold in the form of aluminium phosphide, calcium phosphide, or zinc phosphide pellets, which yield phosphine on contact with atmospheric water or rodents' stomach acid.

So carbide users are "passive poisoners"....... 

That's weird isn't it? Pure acetylene is odourless but carbide stinks because of the phosphine impurity. But phosphine is odourless and only stinks because of other impurities. No doubt these are also odourless and only stink because of impurities. Surely something actually smells all on its little ownsome?

Phosphine really shouldn't be a problem in the environment as the "relatively low concentrations" required to poison people is still a lot higher than the traces produced by spent carbide (don't forget you will have burned most of it already) and it degrades very fast in the soil.

 

[AndyF]

That's weird isn't it? Pure acetylene is odourless but carbide stinks because of the phosphine impurity. But phosphine is odourless and only stinks because of other impurities. No doubt these are also odourless and only stink because of impurities. Surely something actually smells all on its little ownsome?

Phosphine really shouldn't be a problem in the environment as the "relatively low concentrations" required to poison people is still a lot higher than the traces produced by spent carbide (don't forget you will have burned most of it already) and it degrades very fast in the soil.

Which all brings me back to the question what IS the toxin in spent carbide, if it isnt slaked lime, and it isnt phosphine (as thats a gas and has left the mixture...) ???

...or is it just residual gas still being slowly released...

...or perhaps its that if it is ingested, stomach acid will release just a bit more phosphine and kill you. That sounds plausable.

BTW kids,  dont make pasta with water from you carbide lamp, bad thing...

 

[Dave H]

I have a large rocket tube full of the big lump carbide that you used to get in France 15 years ago - I wonder what has happened to it over that time?
At least I know that it hasn't gone bang.
15 years old carbide going cheap, with a few Malham generators and reflectors on Joe Brown helmets?

In long crawls a carbide lamp always gave me a mild asthmatic reaction.
I'm not sure if it was the smoke, or the gas (as normally crawling with a carbide went along the lines of :-  shuffle, shuffle, $*£%^$, click, click, click, poof, shuffle, shuffle, $*£%^$, click, click, click, poof)   

I feel that carbides really have long past their useful life. I'm even beginning to think the same about my rack of Oldhams!

 

[Downer]

That's weird isn't it? Pure acetylene is odourless but carbide stinks because of the phosphine impurity. But phosphine is odourless and only stinks because of other impurities. No doubt these are also odourless and only stink because of impurities. Surely something actually smells all on its little ownsome?

Phosphine really shouldn't be a problem in the environment as the "relatively low concentrations" required to poison people is still a lot higher than the traces produced by spent carbide (don't forget you will have burned most of it already) and it degrades very fast in the soil.

Which all brings me back to the question what IS the toxin in spent carbide, if it isnt slaked lime, and it isnt phosphine (as thats a gas and has left the mixture...) ???

...or is it just residual gas still being slowly released...

...or perhaps its that if it is ingested, stomach acid will release just a bit more phosphine and kill you. That sounds plausable.

BTW kids,  dont make pasta with water from you carbide lamp, bad thing...

Eating the stuff aside, has it actually been shown to be "toxic" to any great degree? Bad for aqueous environments, yes, but buried in the tip or spread over the cabbage patch, I wonder?

 

[Downer]

Yes, reduction of the use of carbide lights will lessen the chances of dumped carbide appearing underground but the swing towards helmet-mounted batteries and use of non-rechargables may mean in increase in discarded batteries...

Why would anyone use non-rechargables other than in an emergency? NiMH are usually higher capacity than alkalines of the same size and they perform better. Seems perverse to bother with anything else. Cost and hassle of a charger, perhaps?

 

[paul]

but the swing towards helmet-mounted batteries and use of non-rechargables may mean in increase in discarded batteries

I'm not so sure about this. LED lights run at a dim level for a very very long time indeed and anyone owning one is highly likely to continue their trip without needing to change the batteries while underground, probably more likely to think "It's about time I got some new batteries", and change them while above ground thereby discarding the batteries above ground at the same time.

Put another way, unlike traditional light bulbs, batteries powering LED lamps don't run out mid-trip - they just get dim and remain so for a very long time: I don't think it's going to be an habitual occurrence for people to change batteries while underground unless they're on expedition-type trips.

You're probably right, but I have come across a number of discarded AA cells recently in various locations...

You forgot to type "Which I picked up and carried out".

Of course!  :halo:

 

[spikey]

Off topic, but.......

This is not particularly a criticism, but I find it amazing that some people seem to post after obviously having scanned through, rather than actually read the previous posts in the thread. On this page there are some posts which have been covered or answered almost identically, but on a previous page.

As my teachers used to say, "read it, then re-read it, then read it again !!! "  :spank:

 

[graham]

So, to sum this thread up:

Carbide no longer has a place.

LEDs are great.

Clogs are great.

James is an arse.

 

[MSD]

That's weird isn't it? Pure acetylene is odourless but carbide stinks because of the phosphine impurity. But phosphine is odourless and only stinks because of other impurities. No doubt these are also odourless and only stink because of impurities. Surely something actually smells all on its little ownsome?

Phosphine really shouldn't be a problem in the environment as the "relatively low concentrations" required to poison people is still a lot higher than the traces produced by spent carbide (don't forget you will have burned most of it already) and it degrades very fast in the soil.

Which all brings me back to the question what IS the toxin in spent carbide, if it isnt slaked lime, and it isnt phosphine (as thats a gas and has left the mixture...) ???

...or is it just residual gas still being slowly released...

...or perhaps its that if it is ingested, stomach acid will release just a bit more phosphine and kill you. That sounds plausable.

BTW kids,  dont make pasta with water from you carbide lamp, bad thing...

Eating the stuff aside, has it actually been shown to be "toxic" to any great degree? Bad for aqueous environments, yes, but buried in the tip or spread over the cabbage patch, I wonder?

Industrially produced carbide is not particularly pure. I found a scientific article on the web which states definitively that carbide often contains traces of arsenic. Like many heavy metals, arsenic is pretty poisonous even in small quanities, and poisonous levels can build up cumulatively both over time and up the food chain.

So the answer to your question is yes.

Mark