Cave Related Climate Change discussion

[Peter Burgess]

Did Gus suggest it wasn't a natural process? Ice melting is a natural process. 

 

[whitelackington]

One natural process that caused some species to virtually self destruct
was the over population of organisms that excreted oxygen.
They gassed themselves out of the outside environment and retreated underground.
Are they now taking their revenge :-\

 

[Les W]

Here's another possible long-term effect of climate change on caves:  erosion of speleothems.  If there is an increased rainfall on the surface, there will be an increased percolation rate through the minute fissures which allow CaCO3 to be taken into solution and precipitated.  The increased flow can exceed the point at which CaCO3 is precipitated and erosion takes over.  Therefore many of our formations may start to slowly disappear.

The dissolution of Stal requires that the cave atmosphere has substantially higher CO2 than the water, and that the wate is not saturated with CO2

The water will then take more CO2 from the [cave] atmosphere and become more aggressive. If the water is saturated (normally the case) then the water will not get more aggressive and will not erode the speleothems.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Here's another possible long-term effect of climate change on caves:  erosion of speleothems.  If there is an increased rainfall on the surface, there will be an increased percolation rate through the minute fissures which allow CaCO3 to be taken into solution and precipitated.  The increased flow can exceed the point at which CaCO3 is precipitated and erosion takes over.  Therefore many of our formations may start to slowly disappear.

The dissolution of Stal requires that the cave atmosphere has substantially higher CO2 than the water, and that the wate is not saturated with CO2

The water will then take more CO2 from the [cave] atmosphere and become more aggressive. If the water is saturated (normally the case) then the water will not get more aggressive and will not erode the speleothems.

I wonder if the monasteries had a lower tolerance threshhold to carbon dioxide. Sorry.  :-[

 

[andymorgan]

One natural process that caused some species to virtually self destruct
was the over population of organisms that excreted oxygen.
They gassed themselves out of the outside environment and retreated underground.
Are they now taking their revenge :-\

Are you talking about plants  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

 

[cap n chris]

But that's a natural process. Unless, of course, people are aliens.

How do you mean?

Oops! Sorry, Gus; I was off with the fairies. You make a good observation (I re-read the title of this thread) and that's what this is about, not the whys-and-wherefores of climate change, about which I was thinking.

 

[cap n chris]

Here's some very good footage of a floodpulse - for anyone who doesn't know what one is!

BTW they do occur in the UK and you can well imagine the consequences of being underground! - sobering stuff, indeed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8750134985340587369

 

[whitelackington]

Here's another possible long-term effect of climate change on caves:  erosion of speleothems.  If there is an increased rainfall on the surface, there will be an increased percolation rate through the minute fissures which allow CaCO3 to be taken into solution and precipitated.  The increased flow can exceed the point at which CaCO3 is precipitated and erosion takes over.  Therefore many of our formations may start to slowly disappear.

The dissolution of Stal requires that the cave atmosphere has substantially higher CO2 than the water, and that the wate is not saturated with CO2

The water will then take more CO2 from the [cave] atmosphere and become more aggressive. If the water is saturated (normally the case) then the water will not get more aggressive and will not erode the speleothems.

I wonder if the monasteries had a lower tolerance threshhold to carbon dioxide. Sorry.  :-[

After Henry enacted the dissolution of the monastries,
he went on to dissolute his own marriage

 

[whitelackington]

One natural process that caused some species to virtually self destruct
was the over population of organisms that excreted oxygen.
They gassed themselves out of the outside environment and retreated underground.
Are they now taking their revenge :-\

Are you talking about plants  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

They used to be called bacteria, they made the oxygen rich atmosphere we now enjoy

 

[gus horsley]

But that's a natural process. Unless, of course, people are aliens.

How do you mean?

Oops! Sorry, Gus; I was off with the fairies. You make a good observation (I re-read the title of this thread) and that's what this is about, not the whys-and-wherefores of climate change, about which I was thinking.

Not a problem mate.

 

[andymorgan]

They used to be called bacteria, they made the oxygen rich atmosphere we now enjoy

What are they called now?

 

[whitelackington]

I don't know, they seem to be re-evaluating what is a bacteria

 

[andymorgan]

I get what you mean now, they are known as archaea.

 

[gus horsley]

There would be changes to the fauna of caves.  I'm not sure how global warming will affect bats but I'm fairly certain it will be negative.  They may not go into hibernation due to the temperature not dropping below a sufficient level (6 degrees and below for horseshoe bats) which means they may be active throughout the winter.  Most hibernating bats mate in the autumn but don't become pregnant until the early spring (which is quite a feat) so I suspect that warmer winters will seriously disrupt their gestation cycles.  There may also be a lack of food in the winter which is one of the reasons they hibernate in the first place.

 

[Elaine]

I would have thought that if bats go into hibernation when the temperature reaches a certain low, then that would be because that is the temperature that their food source would start to become scarce. Just guessing.

 

[kay]

There would be changes to the fauna of caves.  I'm not sure how global warming will affect bats but I'm fairly certain it will be negative.  They may not go into hibernation due to the temperature not dropping below a sufficient level (6 degrees and below for horseshoe bats) which means they may be active throughout the winter.  Most hibernating bats mate in the autumn but don't become pregnant until the early spring (which is quite a feat) so I suspect that warmer winters will seriously disrupt their gestation cycles.  There may also be a lack of food in the winter which is one of the reasons they hibernate in the first place.

Is there not capacity for some of them to move northwards? Are not some of the species on their northern boundary in the UK? I think we have only 4 species in Yorkshire compared with the quite a few more down south. I know it's not as simple as that - how fussy are they about what they eat? And availability of insects depends on availability, ultimately, of food plants, and plants can't move range as quickly as animals.

 

[whitelackington]

I wonder if bats fly north for the summer,
cos on the tundra there are shit loads of insects in the summer.

 

[cap n chris]

What, migrate? - like birds*, chavs and the elderly?

* specifically those birds which migrate.

 

[gus horsley]

It doesn't necessarily follow that there will be an increase in insects during warmer winters.  Many of our moths and butterflies are known to migrate from the continent but its suspected that fairly rapid climate change doesn't mean they will change their long-established habits and migrate here earlier in the year.  So there could be a food shortage for bats which don't hibernate.

 

[whitelackington]

Are there any cave scientists out there?

Has any work been done to determine if increased carbon dioxide concentrations in the outside atmosphere have an exaggerated effect underground?
Already there apparently is a massively greater % of CO2 in a cave than up top. :thumbsdown: