cave rope lengths / Dales

caving_fox

Member
An inverse to the popular question of what lengths to cut a drum of rope into:
I'll be in the Dales with a limited set of ropes, what are the best/achievable caves available?

Is there an easily readable list cave / required ropes?

Yes I could read every page of the guidebooks, but before I embark on that I thought I'd ask here. (google only brings up the 'best lengths to cut' options.

Alternatively I have the following available to me, suggestions please on trips to try: 47, 60, 30m (plus ladder x2 !)

Swinsto would be an obvious choice. Others?
 

Caveman Ken

New member
I suggest think of some caves you would like to do and then check on here. https://cncc.org.uk/caving/topos/
The topos give the rope lengths you need
 

Fjell

Member
Cut the 60 into 15, 20, 25m lengths. Tie together as required. The 47 is enough for most longer single drops in the caves you have enough rope for.

You need about 350m of various lengths to comfortably cover all caves in the Dales if you don?t want to be passing knots or humping excessive extra rope. Plus 40 krabs or maillons. Luckily about the limit for me and the wife in our old age, good thing we don?t live in France eh?
 
Have just looked through CNCC topos for you. You could do any of these, but you'll have some spare rope on quite a few.
Long Drop
SE Alum Pot
Bar Pot
Car Pot
Bull Pot of Witches
Deaths head
Hardrawkin
Heron
Hunt
Jingling Pot
Jockey Hole
Lancaster Hole
Langcliffe or Oddmire
Magnetometer
New Rift Pot
Pillar Holes
Scanty Lardos
Sell Gill
Shuttleworth Pot
Short Drop
Sunset
Top Sink
Washfold
Yordas Pot top entrance
 

caving_fox

Member
s_allshorn said:
Have just looked through CNCC topos for you. You could do any of these, but you'll have some spare rope on quite a few.
Long Drop
SE Alum Pot
Bar Pot
Car Pot
Bull Pot of Witches
Deaths head
Hardrawkin
Heron
Hunt
Jingling Pot
Jockey Hole
Lancaster Hole
Langcliffe or Oddmire
Magnetometer
New Rift Pot
Pillar Holes
Scanty Lardos
Sell Gill
Shuttleworth Pot
Short Drop
Sunset
Top Sink
Washfold
Yordas Pot top entrance

That's really useful thanks very much!
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
This is a very easy question to answer using the Braemoor data that's been posted about previously on the forum. I've cobbled together a very makeshift tool that allows you to do this for your own rope lengths. For 47, 60, 30 it spits out:

Trip Rope lengths required
Lost Johns' Cave (Dome Pot Alternative)22, 19
Gaping Gill (Echo Rift)24
Notts Pot (De Profundis)28, 20, 20
Notts Pot (BUSS Route)45, 25, 12
Notts Pot (Alternative entrance)11, 9
Notts Pot (Acrobat Pot)22, 12
Langcliffe Pot35
Long Drop Cave45, 12, 10
Oddmire Pot30
Rift Pot (Entrance pitches)40, 15, 10
Rift Pot (Bob Hole)50, 25
Rift Pot (Bob Hole alternative last pitch)45
Rift Pot (Main Shaft)40, 25
Alum (South East)55
Alum (under the Bridge)45
Aygill Caverns25, 20
Bar Pot60, 35
Bull Pot of the Witches (chimney)20
Calf Holes30, 25
Cow Pot60, 30, 30
Christmas Pot40, 30
Hardrawkin Pot40, 40
Hunt Pot45, 30
Lancaster (Entrance)55
Lancaster (Chasm)40
Lancaster (Craptrap)40
Lost Johns (Valhalla alternative)50
Lost Johns (Sink Chamber)30, 20, 15
Lower Long Churn (Dollytubs alternative)35
Marble Steps Pot (Snow)20
Marble Steps Pot (Gully)60, 40
Marble Steps Pot (Wet)30, 20
Marble Steps Pot (Sidewinder)60, 45
Marble Steps (Intestines)25, 25, 10
Marilyn40, 35
Meregill Hole (alternative first two pitches)30, 25
New Goyden Pot25, 20
New Rift Pot50, 30, 25
Notts Pot (Entrance)20, 15
Notts Pot (Left)45, 25, 15
Notts Pot (Twilight Zone)55, 25
Notts Pot (Centre)55, 35
Pillar Holes (1)50
Pillar Holes (2)50, 30, 20
Pillar Holes (3)20
Roaring Hole30, 30, 15
Sell Gill Holes (Fossil)30, 30, 15
Sell Gill Holes (Goblin)45, 45
Short Drop Cave to sump + traverse50, 30, 20
Shuttleworth Pot60, 20
Top Sink35, 15
New Rift Pot (IC version)45, 20, 20
Penyghent Pot Eyrie Pot17, 15
Floyd's Entrance20, 5
Lord Tot's Hole15, 15
Heron Pot (normal)25, 17
Heron Pot (High Level)45
Aquamole Pot (alternative)35, 20
Craftman's Pot40, 20, 15
Jingling (from tree)55, 17
Jingling (main shaft from rift)55
Jingling (lateral route from trees)45, 20, 17
Rowten Pot (Flyover)35, 30
Rowten Pot (normal bottom)30, 25
Slanting Cave35
Turbary Pot50
Valley Entrance15
Yordas Cave45, 15, 15
Yordas Pot30
Forget-me-Pot40, 30
Kail Pot15
Large Pot25, 25, 20
Large Pot (RHS Flake Pot)40
Large Pot (Colossus)40, 10, 10
Lost Marbles Entrance35, 12, 12
Lost Marbles Entrance60
Low Douk5
Marble Steps60, 30
Marble Steps (Wet Route)55, 45
Marble Steps (90' to Intestines)40, 20
Marble Steps Wet Entrance25, 12
Marble Steps Wet Entrance (Marble Arch Series)10, 10, 10
The Mohole60, 30, 10
Rift Pot45, 20, 20
Rift Pot (Cross Patch Inlet)12, 10
Steps Pot12

Note that the pitches are sorted by length, not the order you get to them. I also can't say that the data, or in fact the coding, is trustworthy.
 
Ari, your list is slightly flawed, your data has pitches before or after that means they aren't complete trips, like 1. Lost Johns, 2. Gaping gill, Echo Rift, 3. Notts Pot etc.   
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Frankly, I don't think you'd get far down Lost Johns' with just a 22-m and a 19-m! Just as far as the top of one of the bigger pitches, maybe.
 

Cantclimbtom

Active member
Jib Tunnel,55,55
You might end up a 1 metres off the ground on the last pitch even with rope stretch and using the stingiest amount of rope when rigging. Which may be do-able as long as you don't let go of the rope and see it rise a metre or two out of reach. If going with others you could build one of those human towers like the catalans to get it back ;)

I'd be cautious to cut it too fine for lengths if this example is also true for any others?
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Well . . . I don't think that you'd reach the big ledge (oppposite Birkbeck's Ledge) with a 55-m rope.
 

Ian P

Active member
Fulk said:
Well . . . I don't think that you'd reach the big ledge (oppposite Birkbeck's Ledge) with a 55-m rope.

A draft copy of the updated topo for Lateral shaft / Dihedral 

My calculations show 45m from top of Dihedral to Winfields ledge this is just the actual distance NOT the rope length  :eek:
 

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Cantclimbtom

Active member
I agree, a 60 on first pitch is way generous, but a 55 on second pitch is too short.
But my concern wasn't necessarily the specifics of this route, but rather to suggest the underlying data used by Aricooperdavis needs double checking before anyone commits to a route. But a very interesting tool to reverse lookup so to speak
 

mikem

Well-known member
Anyway, the 60, 30 & 47 available would do it...

The database probably needs a way of differentiating between entry, continuation & alternative sections.
 

langcliffe

Active member
mikem said:
The database probably needs a way of differentiating between entry, continuation & alternative sections.

This is an example of the "database":

Lost Johns (Monastery),10,10,50,15,50
Lost Johns (Centipede),10,60,30,25,45,30
Lost Johns (Valhalla alternative),50
Lost Johns (Dome),10,10,30,25,15
Lost Johns (Sink Chamber),30,15,20
Lower Long Churn - Alum (traditional),25,25,35,20,25,20
Lower Long Churn (Dollytubs alternative),35
Marble Steps Pot (Snow),20
Marble Steps Pot (Gully),60,40
Marble Steps Pot (Wet),30,20
Marble Steps Pot (Sidewinder),45,60
Marble Steps (bottom section),10,30,40,30
Marble Steps (Intestines),10,25,25

The original purpose of the data required that each pitch was only recorded once.
 

mikem

Well-known member
A possible additional notation would be
A1 for first section, B1 if alternative
A2 for second, A/B2 if they rejoin etc
A0 if a rope above may be useful sometimes
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
For this use wouldn't it make sense to just list trips, even if the same pitch then appears in multiple trips? I'd have thought that this would be most useful for the original design of the dataset too (choice of rope lengths)...
 

mikem

Well-known member
It would, if someone wants to relist it. It would also be useful to split some of the longer ropes into appropriate lengths (maybe listed in brackets to show they can be rigged together) e.g. gaping gill main shaft can be rigged (25, 100) if you don't have 120 - I've allowed some extra
 
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