Cave Sediment Studies

[Geog Student]

Cheers for all the info, i am interested in the Bagshaw site, as Graham rightly points out anything capped with calcite is of limited use due to the difficulty to date, it is much simpler with active sediments as you know when you are starting from. Although there sounds as if there is plenty to work with in this cave which is excellent. A couple of question regarding sediment size and structure:

1. I am assume in the flood events referred to the previous floods sediment isn't flushed away and only a limited amount of resuspension occurs.

2. Are laminae visible throughout the structure?

In response to Graham's questions 13/02/09:

1. Annual laminae are not a prerequisite i use the term loosely to mean that the sediments haven't been to heavily 'mixed' i.e. there are distinct layers from particular point in time and they are in chronological height order, i.e. oldest at the bottom youngest at the top and everything inbetween.

2. Unfortunately only an active one will do as the chronological controls on a relic are just too weak, (unless i can be convinced of a case otherwise, however there are major dating problems which i would have to clear with my supervisor also things getting into the millennia are just too old as the dating cost and  accuracy are unfortunately beyond my means, well my stingy departmental analytics budget!!)

3. This is a tricky one to postulate over really, ideally speaking a totally undisturbed deposit would be great. However, if there is an area of disturbance and it can be accurately dated and explained it may actually be of some benefit, but ideally not.

4. Sand, mud, slit clay only i am afraid to say, just because i am more interested in the chemicals within the sediment rather that the sediment itself, the idea is to carry out chemical analysis as a representation of deposition of trace chemicals at the ground surface.

Thanks everyone for your suggestion so far it has been a great help any more information would be great in light of my response. I intend to speak to my tutor at the end of the week and put the most appropriate ideas forward. This will lead to a site visit in the next few weeks to check suitability. Thanks again.

 

[graham]

Ok, that all makes sense. Baggers may well be the site you want, if Sam is right (I don't know it).

If the project does come up with any interesting results, then the wider caving community may well be interested as some of us are vaguely scientifically literate. You might wish to submit a paper to Cave and Karst Science, or if not them, I may be able to help place it.

 

[SamT]

Pretty sure bagshawe will get you as close as possible to your criteria.

Places where we can see visible strata.

There should be some places where the sediment is unlikely to have been disturbed by cavers, but we may have to slice away to get to it. Im thinking of a sandbank that we dug behind recently, the side wall of which will of course be disturbed, but slice another 6 inches into it - and you should get fresh undisturbed sediments with visible laminae.

As for you question about flushing away and re-laying.

I believe that due to the mechanics (ok - fluid dynamics of your being picky) of a flood, this should be OK.

A large amount of water "slowly" and smoothy rises up a large cross sectional area of cave, once it reaches the overflow point, it flows down hill in turbulent manner.
as the flood receeds, the water level slowly drops back down the passage, which is when I guess most of the sediment is laid.

Where are you based??

 

[W Forder]

I am at university at UCL but my family live in Buxton so pretty close. I was wondering what is the access like at the Bagshawe site as i am not a caver, but am willing to learn. Also is it possible to get coring equipment thorough the sediment structure? Overall, it sounds really promising i should be having a meeting about it at the end of the week so hopefully i will be able to arrange a visit to carry out some preliminary check sometime soon. What is the exact location? Cheers, Will.

 

[SamT]

Access is about a straight forward as it comes in caving, walking most of the way, with a bit of comfortable hands an knees crawling.

Clearly - some areas are more easily accessible than others, but most importantly - there are no pitches requiring rope work etc.

See http://www.eldonpotholeclub.org.uk/bagshawe_cavern.html for more details.

I hate to raise the matter, but have you thought about 3rd party liability insurance. It is a requirement of visiting bagshawe cavern (as well as many other caves in the UK).
It is advisable to have specific 3pl insurance if you are caving regardless of whether or not its a requirement of that particular cave or not.
By far and away the best place to get it is via the British Caving Association.
I personally find their insurance pages a bit a of mare to navigate, but I think the main page you want is..

http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=143

So I think to join as a DIM (direct individual member) is 31 quid for the year - this includes the insurance.
(C&KS is caves and Karst science - a publication which you can pay a bit more for).

[shameless plug]
Another route would be to get insured via a club, i.e. The Eldon Pothole Club
Its been based in Buxton for over 50 years & has a stong links with Bagshawe Cavern in Bradwell where the tackle store is.
Aspirant membership - 12 quid + 16 for insurance.
[/shameless plug]

 

[underground]

In general terms, Geog, you'd probably be well advised to join or at least talk to, your Uni's (or some other) caving club and start doing some caving, as it would doubtless be beneficial when you come to begin whatever study you undertake. Caves can be awkward places to move around, so any prior experience is going to make life easier. With specific reference to the location SamT mentioned in Bagshawe - it could be quite a bugger to get to if you aren't relatively experienced - in fact the conditions of the conservation plan for the cavern state that no novices should visit the area in question.

 

[SamT]

UG - Im not actually talking about the stuff in Moose's.  That doesn't fit the criteria in that its not still actively being laid. I just posted the pics as an example on type of the stuff that exists around bagshawe.

I was thinking of the stuff from the hippodrome down to the stream way, or upstream at the dig. No bother with novices getting to at least the streamway.

 

[underground]

UG - Im not actually talking about the stuff in Moose's.  That doesn't fit the criteria in that its not still actively being laid. I just posted the pics as an example on type of the stuff that exists around bagshawe.

I was thinking of the stuff from the hippodrome down to the stream way, or upstream at the dig. No bother with novices getting to at least the streamway.

:idea: Ah, sorry Sam, I misunderstood!

However, it probably still wouldn't hurt to do a bit of caving first, it'll certainly make things easier later on. Anyway, it's rather enjoyable 

 

[SamT]

Anyway, it's rather enjoyable 

it is rather 

 

[MarkC]

1. I am assume in the flood events referred to the previous floods sediment isn't flushed away and only a limited amount of resuspension occurs.

2. Are laminae visible throughout the structure?

In response to Graham's questions 13/02/09:

1. Annual laminae are not a prerequisite i use the term loosely to mean that the sediments haven't been to heavily 'mixed' i.e. there are distinct layers from particular point in time and they are in chronological height order, i.e. oldest at the bottom youngest at the top and everything inbetween.

2. Unfortunately only an active one will do as the chronological controls on a relic are just too weak, (unless i can be convinced of a case otherwise, however there are major dating problems which i would have to clear with my supervisor also things getting into the millennia are just too old as the dating cost and  accuracy are unfortunately beyond my means, well my stingy departmental analytics budget!!)

3. This is a tricky one to postulate over really, ideally speaking a totally undisturbed deposit would be great. However, if there is an area of disturbance and it can be accurately dated and explained it may actually be of some benefit, but ideally not.

4. Sand, mud, slit clay only i am afraid to say, just because i am more interested in the chemicals within the sediment rather that the sediment itself, the idea is to carry out chemical analysis as a representation of deposition of trace chemicals at the ground surface.

Thanks everyone for your suggestion so far it has been a great help any more information would be great in light of my response. I intend to speak to my tutor at the end of the week and put the most appropriate ideas forward. This will lead to a site visit in the next few weeks to check suitability. Thanks again.

Geog,

I have been investigating the distribution of clastic sediments in Streaks pot, Stoney Middleton Dale.  I have been trying establish the provenance of these deposits, as its is suspected that they are anthorpogenic in origin (does that matter?) - there are few sites in Derbyshire where drainage hasn't been affected by artificial drainage to some degree.  The sediments are reworked throughout much of the cave, but in one location in an inlet they are rhythmic, with laminations of dark sand set in light brown silt (rapidly oxidising to dark brown on exposure).  The sediments are unconsolodated, and are present in an active part of the cave which floods regularly.  From memory I estimate there are thirty to forty laminations in the undisturbed exposure.  There is a slight diesel odour, so its expected that TPH would be high.  The site is close to the surface location of a former Cupola, so PB is also expected to be high.

Let me know if you are interested, I could organise a temporary membership of Chesterfield Caving Club for you - I would be interested to see any geochemical data should you analyse these sediments...

Mark C

 

[W Forder]

Hi,

Unfortunately UCL doesn't have a caving society, however, if i get into it through this dissertation it may not be long before there is one. I am a little concerned about my experience, also there will be another member of the department with me so it has to be suitable for maybe a slightly less than peak physical fitness middle-aged geographer. I really need to do a site visit sometime soon to check that everything is ok because i have to hand in a proposal which has to be analysed and approved so i need to understand what i am writing about. I am quite happy to join a club in order to do this. I was thinking possibly visiting in two weeks time but obviously it all depends on whether i can get someone to go with and its safe etc.

Secondly, hi Mark, are you doing your work as part of an academic study? If you have some initial findings i would be very interested to read them. Forty years (potentially less depending on whether or not they are annual laminations) is a little shorter than i would have hoped for, however, that by no means rules the site out. You say they are athropogenic, what source do you anticipate? If it is a single source an the entire deposit is the same then carrying out a geochemical anaylsis wouldn't really show much as it is likely all the data would match up. Hopefully, if i can get a visit to Bagshawe arranged it would be good to visit this site at the same time as well and strat to make comparisons.

Thanks again everyone your input is greatly appreciated, my name is Will by he way didn't really know how the forum name things worked before i started on here.

Cheers

 

[MarkC]

Will,

If your main concern is accessing a site then Bagshawe is your best bet (it was formally a tourist cave).  You'll have to negotiate with Eldon over that.

However if you are interested in Streaks, then Chesterfield CC would be happy to provide you with the necessary equipment and guidance to recover samples with us.  Streaks can be rather challanging and is weather depandant, so failing that I could always sample and photograph the site for you (I am trained to MSc level as a Quaternary Scientist).  Which middle aged geographer are you referring to?  I was a UCL Geography in 2007, so I may know him. 

I can provide you with the information I have on the site (mainly desk based research, but also some descriptions).  You will have to contact me separately for this - go to http://www.chesterfieldcavingclub.org.uk/Digs.html for my personal email and some info on the background to the DCA conservation audit.

My views on the cause of the pollution are potentially controversial, so I'd prefer not to discuss them on a public forum until the facts have been established.  It is hoped the data would provide a geochemical finger print which may be similar to sediments I have found with a similar character on the surface (this is a technique we use in tracing pollution pathways at the consultancy I work for).

There are also some older laminated deposits that are found throughout the cave.  They are clay rich and very compact.  Refer to R P Shaw's PhD thesis 1984 (Leicester) for more info.  It may be interesting to compare the properties of the the different deposits in Streaks to contrast their provenance (I don't know what the aim of your research is)?  Incidentally the sources of Bagshawe and Stoney Middleton Dale are both in the vicinity of Warlow Mires, so this may also be of some research interest.  You would obviously have to seek permission from Natural England to sample any of the sediments as they form part of a SSSI, but I could also provide you with contacts for that (if you don't have them already). 

Mark C

 

[W Forder]

Hi sam, was just wondering if there is any chance of a visit to Bagshawe a week on Sunday?

Cheers,

Will

 

[nickwilliams]

Incidentally the sources of Bagshawe and Stoney Middleton Dale are both in the vicinity of Warlow Mires,

Apologies for a brief non-academic diversion, but I'm surprised by this (as far as Bagshawe is concerned, at least), although I'm certainly not in a position to disagree. I understood the watershed was in the Grindlow area (i.e about a mile north of Wardlow Mires) since I was told Dowse Hole goes to Bagshawe but a swallet on the other side of the road there goes to Cressbrook.

Is there a definitive publication on the hydrology of this part of Derbyshire (in which case what is it?), or is it all published piecemeal and hence difficult to get a coherent picture without looking at a lot of different sources?

I presume you mean Wardlow Mires, incidentally?

Nick.

 

[SamT]

Yes - Nick is right.

There is actually a 3 way water shed, the water that sinks at wardlow mires resurges  at cressbrook. The water from the Douse hole catchment (between Great Hucklow and Grindlow resurges at Bagshawe, and the water to the south of the Dowse hole catchment resurges in Stoney.

 

[MarkC]

'Mrs Smythes', Piece End and Swevic House swallets all drain towards Stoney (thanks to the sough drainage).  Under natural conditions it is likely they drained the other way; in the direction of Duce Hole and eventually towards Bagshawe.  Interestingly at Wardlow Mires there is an estaville, so under natural conditions the drainage probably would have gone either way (Basgshaw or Stoney), depending on the level of the piezometric surface.

You are both right, thanks to the miners, the watershed is somewhere between Mrs Smythes Swallet and Duce Hole today!

Mark C

 

[nickwilliams]

Where does this hydrological info. come from, then? Is there one particularly useful reference which I could turn to for more details?

Nick.

 

[SamT]

Err - back on topic,

Will, Im afraid Im busy this weekend  , not sure if anyone out there is able to offer Will a trip into bagshawe. My weekends are pretty tied up for the next month at least.

Im available most weekday evenings - but Im guessing that may not suit you. Next Thurs would be ideal.

Johnny of this site, and or Underground may be available. PM for me you phone number and I'll have a chat with you..

 

[MarkC]

Where does this hydrological info. come from, then? Is there one particularly useful reference which I could turn to for more details?

Sorry Nick:

Beck, J.S.  1980.  Aspects of Speleogenesis in the Carboniferous Limestone of North Derbyshire.  Unpublished PhD Thesis, University of Leicester.
Gunn, J. (1988). Water tracing experiments in the Peak District.  Report for Laporte Industries Ltd.
Gunn, J. (1998). The hydrogeology of the Carboniferous Limestone in the Derwent catchment. University of Huddersfield, Limestone Research Group Report 98/13.
Kirkham, N. (1952)  Lead Mine Soughs of Eyam, Stoney Middleton and Calver, Derbyshire. Part 2. British Caver. 23, 64˗67.
Whitehead, R. (2000). Water tracing experiments in the Peak District. Unpublished M.Sc. thesis, University of Huddersfield.

There will with a synopsis  in the Stoney audit desk study report, which has been written by JB & JG. 

Mark C

 

[underground]

Err - back on topic,

Will, Im afraid Im busy this weekend  , not sure if anyone out there is able to offer Will a trip into bagshawe. My weekends are pretty tied up for the next month at least.

Im available most weekday evenings - but Im guessing that may not suit you. Next Thurs would be ideal.

Johnny of this site, and or Underground may be available. PM for me you phone number and I'll have a chat with you..

Sorry Will, I missed this request - however, the only thing you would have got out of a trip with me this weekend is a high risk of getting a projectile vomiting bug, that's been the main focus of the last 24 hours, cleaning up vom  :yucky: