Cave Taping and Conservation.

[bograt]

Be good for the next batch but ?100 of DCA red tape is arriving with me tomorrow!

I thought the DCA red tape was developed over many years, I didn't' know you had to buy it in

 

[Leclused]

Suspect Lecluse is refering to electric fencing 'wire';

Can't get the link to work, but Google " Rutland Electric Fencing" for an example.

Ta for that, had a quick look, yes I think that will be the stuff. Will look into it in more detail next week...

Sorry for the delay. I'm on holiday in Tenerife for the moment. The wire we use is the wiring farmers use to protect their live stock.

 

[bograt]

Suspect Lecluse is refering to electric fencing 'wire';

Can't get the link to work, but Google " Rutland Electric Fencing" for an example.

Ta for that, had a quick look, yes I think that will be the stuff. Will look into it in more detail next week...

Sorry for the delay. I'm on holiday in Tenerife for the moment. The wire we use is the wiring farmers use to protect their live stock.

Yup!, same stuff!, main U.K. supplier is Rutland Electric Fencing (A.K.A. Electric Shepherd), there may be others I'm not aware of. Usually available at most agricultural supply stores.

 

[cap n chris]

It would be very useful to know how long it has been in the cave and whether it shows any signs of degrading with age/humidity/temperature etc., as these are factors we know little about in the UK only having recently commenced using electric fence tape for conservation route marking.

 

[bograt]

It would be very useful to know how long it has been in the cave and whether it shows any signs of degrading with age/humidity/temperature etc., as these are factors we know little about in the UK only having recently commenced using electric fence tape for conservation route marking.

Can let folks have 2or 3 metre lengths as required for assessment, it gets regularly chewed and mangled by livestock, so longer lengths are not available for free, we have to pay for it !!.

Can say that lengths exposed to open air Peak District environment is good for about 20 years

 

[Leclused]

It would be very useful to know how long it has been in the cave and whether it shows any signs of degrading with age/humidity/temperature etc., as these are factors we know little about in the UK only having recently commenced using electric fence tape for conservation route marking.

Fencig wire: up to 5 years in caves now. No signs of slack or damage.
Orange nylon rope 3mm: in caves over 10 years. No signs of slack but from time to time eaten by animals ==> more repairs required

 

[The Old Ruminator]

The fencing tape comes in two widths as far as I know. 10mm and 20mm. The 10mm has a 60 kilo breaking strain. Some varieties are multicoloured with orange braiding. The normal orange tape we have used is very " limp " and can sag whilst the fencing tape remains tight. We fix the tape to the hangers with clear cable ties which form a weak spot and are easily replaced. Some are kept in the cave. Therefore no more broken tapes.

A bit more on the "issues " and by no means a criticism of anyone past or present.

When Shatter Cave was discovered the first person into Pillar Chamber walked right across the sparkling crystal floor. His muddy footprints are still there 45 years later. The wonderful helectites were trodden on as they were incorrectly protected and that particular trip improperly lead. At the time Junior Leaders with little or no caving experience were being taken into the cave by Border Caving Group. When the main streamway in Manor Farm Swallet was discovered I just happened to be there. Everyone went yelling pell mell down the cave then out to the pub. Pete Rose and I stayed behind to accidentally discover NHASA Gallery.( We gingerly progressed half way down ).Same in GB's Bat passage. Nowhere as lovely now. Forward a heck of a lot of years to Reservoir Cave.
We are in virgin passage at Hard Times. Nigel pushes through the last bit and a little voice returns " It's fu**ing huge" . What happens? Alison magically produces a reel of tape ( I think its somewhere upon her person at all times ). Nobody goes anywhere until the tape is down. When we discover The Frozen Deep there is "work" to be done. Er no I want to take photos and go exploring. Uh , uh and the camera is banned on the next " working trip ". Friction ensues and its not through tape burn but the job gets done ( and later redone ). John Cooper ,who had nothing to do with digging ,gives up a lot of time to help with the taping. The drill is in use for fitting risers. It made me think and this was at the core of Stanton's thinking I guess. If you find something that is irreplaceable and unspoiled it becomes your responsibility to protect it. What you do next will be part of that cave for ever. ( just like those muddy footprints in Shatter ). So you may not like tapes ( of any colour ), locked gates or management committees. Consider, though, what that cave would become without them.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

My c 1970 colour slide converted to black and white.

Shatter Helectites . Lost and gone forever because of poor taping and inadequate leadership.

 

[pete rose]

of course ...by your digging you created a mist of particles which will settle and be incorporated into stal. those 'twinkles' from the formations will just disappear....just like us!wire rope would be the best alternative.
ever wonder where your grass strimmer cable ends up?

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Too late Mr R. The Radon has got to both of us now. The wife says even I am twinkling in the bedroom. Phone now mended by the way.

 

[Leclused]

The fencing tape comes in two widths as far as I know. 10mm and 20mm. The 10mm has a 60 kilo breaking strain. Some varieties are multicoloured with orange braiding. The normal orange tape we have used is re easily replaced. Some are kept in the cave. Therefore no more broken tapes.

10mm looks more like a band and is a bit wide (imho) The fencing wire we use is like rope and is 3mm in diameter. See for an example the photo set in my first post in this topic. There you can see the roll with inthis case white wires. Roughly halfway the photo set😄

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Yes there is an alternative " wire " rather than " tape " perhaps we should stick to that nomenclature.

 

[bograt]

 

[Mark]

....When Shatter Cave was discovered the first person into Pillar Chamber walked right across the sparkling crystal floor. His muddy footprints are still there 45 years later....

I think footprints are part of the story of the cave, if footprints could be found that were proved to belong to Martel or Casteret or some other notable explorer they would be preserved and protected.

I can think of places in the Peaks where few people have been, where there are footprints of people no longer with us PB, Buster, Keith Joule and others. and I would get pleasure out of seeing those

I suspect in Mendip there would be great pleasure in seeing Jrat's footprints somewhere.

And just to put thing into perspective.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Possibly. But in the mining history world, the "original" footprints are those of the miners or quarrymen. To see modern explorers' footprints amongst them, no matter how well-known the explorer, is an abomination. Every site is different and anyone who thinks that because they are the first people ever to tread somewhere, they have some kind of right or duty to leave their mark, doesn't impress me. I have always held that the best way to leave your mark in the history of cave discovery is to document your efforts for posterity, not inscribe anything anywhere in the cave - let's leave that for our cave-dwelling predecessors.

 

[martinr]

I suspect in Mendip there would be great pleasure in seeing Jrat's footprints somewhere.

Perhaps not his footprints, but there is a place in Upper Flood where he left his mark. Jrat had pushed on, alone, along an unexplored passage. Eventually, he halted - even though the passage continued ahead, unobstructed. He told me later, he had been forced to stop by his own conscience. He  had not been followed by the rest of the (MCG) diggers and "it just didn't seem right to go on alone". So with virgin passage ahead of him, he put down a marker to show how far he had got, and retreated.

Here's his write up (from Belfry Bulletin)

We all then continued downstream, Mike exploring a muddy phreatic tube on the left which soon ended in a static sump. Just beyond this I scrambled down into a lower canal passage ending in a calcite choke. The main passage continued overhead and this was where Julie had stopped due to a large hole in the floor, which she considered needed protection to surmount. Finding myself in the lead, and blessed with longer legs, I got the job of traversing over the c.6m pit down to the lower passage. This got me to another c.6m drop beyond where an almost vertical flowstone cascade was free-climbed down into a high canal passage with the usual masses of pretties. Further along the continuing bore tube a couple of descending tubes on the left intersected sections of a lower, muddy and relatively small stream passage with a trickle of water. ..... My recollection of how far I followed the main phreatic tunnel are blurred by the adrenalin rush of the moment but I realised I was alone and in someone elses cave so I left a marker and returned to the others. About 3-400m was found in this series today and it was left wide open and 3-4m in diameter for Julie and a different team to return next day.

source

Needless to say, his marker has been preserved

 

[graham]

Nice one, Martin 

One of the many good points about J-Rat was his social conscience.

Far too many of today's "me me me" brigade would just have pressed on and to hell with anyone else. Note his use of the phrase "someone else's cave."

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Ten mm tapes and wire. Also available 20 mm tape. I can see the wire has use in some circumstances but it would have to be a very controlled environment. Both come in 200 m rolls.
Regarding longevity . The bottom tape has been around a field for many years. There is no degradation and the discoloration is organic. Not likely to occur in a cave.

 

[mrodoc]

....When Shatter Cave was discovered the first person into Pillar Chamber walked right across the sparkling crystal floor. His muddy footprints are still there 45 years later....

I think footprints are part of the story of the cave, if footprints could be found that were proved to belong to Martel or Casteret or some other notable explorer they would be preserved and protected.

I can think of places in the Peaks where few people have been, where there are footprints of people no longer with us PB, Buster, Keith Joule and others. and I would get pleasure out of seeing those

I suspect in Mendip there would be great pleasure in seeing Jrat's footprints somewhere.

And just to put thing into perspective.

Readers may be amused if they visit Grebe Swallet to see an obscured  miner's bootprint labelled as 'miner's bootprint overlain by footprint of conservation officer"

 

[JasonC]

I really appreciate taping, it goes a long way to stopping me being the cause of terrible damage, and personally tape in a photo doesn't bother me.

Belated  to this.  My guess is that most cases of 'vandalism' are simple carelessness, trips and slips when tired,etc.
If some well-positioned tape or traverse line helps me negotiate fantastic formations without leaving my mud on them, then I'm all for them.
The most fragile caves may need a guide system, but even this doesn't guarantee cleanliness.
Assuming 99.9% of cavers would be mortified by causing permanent damage (as I would) - effective taping/lining is - IMO - the best method of protection.