Peter Burgess
New member
I have published a 1000 print run for Shropshire Mines Trust. It was a piece of cake.
Caves of the Peak District
- Thread starter Iain Barker
- Start date
S
SLP
Guest
AndyF said:
Is that not the whole idea? Information provided by cavers for cavers? The information within guides comes from hundreds of sources. The content can still be protected under copyright but do we need to protect it from ourselves?
bubba
Administrator
That's not the idea as far as I can make out - people want to make money from the new guide... which I guess is fair enough given the amount of effort that they put in.SLP said:
That said, there's nothing to stop things like the wiki on this site (with a print to PDF function) replacing such guides in the future.
C
Clive G
Guest
SLP said:
And the reason that the information is available between two covers is that someone has spent hundreds or thousands of hours collating, refining, checking, amending, expanding, updating and presenting that information.
You are not only buying the information, but the manner in which it has been checked and presented. Provided the author(s) is/are good at their job, then you will be able to rely on the content.
Of course the author(s) should be recompensed for their work. This is the whole principle on which society is based. Try telling your accountant or a lawyer that all they've got to do is give you a little free information, which 'won't cost them anything but time' to pass on . . .
However, the fact is, to get paid you have to produce the finished product - and for that you need a suitable printing firm and also good advice from someone who has published before concerning the legal aspects: copyright, clearance for using the illustrations, disclaimer(s), ISBN no., cataloguing information . . . etc.
S
SLP
Guest
Part of my living comes from selling books and I'm keen to protect my future by promoting properly published works. However, I think specialist guides with minority audiences like this are in the main a labour of love for all involved and are based upon previous editions and a massive amount of work by all authors, editors and contributors, past and present. These days they're not a way to make money. I stand to be corrected but I doubt Iain or John set out on the current project to make money, but if they did, that's fine by me. Yes, a real book would be good, as would the generation of funds to cover costs and future editions but as someone who's been involved with publishers for over 25 years I can't help but question the viability of minority publications like this with the world the way it is now. I would like to see another real book, to sit along side previous editions on my shelf. I like CD's not mp3's, I like shops not web sites, hand pulled pints....
We've had enquiries about this guide every week since the 1991 edition went out of print, which was over ten years ago. As a caver, I think it's a shame that the younger generation of cavers are still without the information and inspiration that a guide like this provides. It was the old pink '84 edition in part that inspired us to discover the caves that we have.
Iain, you've been very quiet since you started this thred. What are your thoughts at the mo?
We've had enquiries about this guide every week since the 1991 edition went out of print, which was over ten years ago. As a caver, I think it's a shame that the younger generation of cavers are still without the information and inspiration that a guide like this provides. It was the old pink '84 edition in part that inspired us to discover the caves that we have.
Iain, you've been very quiet since you started this thred. What are your thoughts at the mo?
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Wrong! All the information IS actually available if people are willing to go to the obvious sources. How many cavers make the simple effort of reading journals in a club library for example (where you'll get far more information than can be squeezed into a single area guide). How many serious exploratory cavers ever refuse a genuine request for advice or information from keen newer cavers (unless they have reasons for not making it public, in which case it'd not appear in web form anyway).
There's lots of of people who post comments about information not being available when what they really mean is their magic box of tricks can't find it at the press of a few buttons. Those who are seriously interested will always find what they want.
There's nowt wrong with web based stuff complementing a printed guide book (and of course vice versa); SLP might remember how I went to some effort to write material for his own excellent online guides. But for reasons posted earlier a physical book actually has several advantages over a web based approach (and, it has to be said, some disadvantages).
I think Iain is "quiet" because he's busy actually sorting this one out.
There's lots of of people who post comments about information not being available when what they really mean is their magic box of tricks can't find it at the press of a few buttons. Those who are seriously interested will always find what they want.
There's nowt wrong with web based stuff complementing a printed guide book (and of course vice versa); SLP might remember how I went to some effort to write material for his own excellent online guides. But for reasons posted earlier a physical book actually has several advantages over a web based approach (and, it has to be said, some disadvantages).
I think Iain is "quiet" because he's busy actually sorting this one out.
S
SLP
Guest
In the end I think we're all barking up the same tree...
bubba
Administrator
I made some scans of the old 1991 book available online at a password protected website so that friends could access such information.
I was threatened with legal action to take it down.
I can only surmise from this that they're in it for the money. If not, why attempt to legally block the restricted online publication of an out of print book? It would hardly have affected the sales of a new guide since as has been said, everyone likes to have a real book to read and anyway, the information was well out of date anyway.
If they cared about information being freely available then they wouldn't have spat out their dummys. Just look at something like Google Books for example.
I was threatened with legal action to take it down.
I can only surmise from this that they're in it for the money. If not, why attempt to legally block the restricted online publication of an out of print book? It would hardly have affected the sales of a new guide since as has been said, everyone likes to have a real book to read and anyway, the information was well out of date anyway.
If they cared about information being freely available then they wouldn't have spat out their dummys. Just look at something like Google Books for example.
SamT
Moderator
Clive G said:
Why get one person to do all the work (recompense is only fair in this situation) when you can get hundreds nay thousands of volunteers to do the work.
Everybody is worried about the quality of the information. Who is best placed to write up the info on various caves... The people who've actually been down them of course.
Iains a good bloke, but I doubt very much he's been down every bit of every cave in the guide.
And info on an wiki is peer reviewed. If you read something on there that you know to be carp - then you can log on and correct the information. You can even see who's updated the info from the logs, and malicious users can be banned from contributing etc.
I really cant see the argument for saying
"This one lad here is right about everything, it says so in his book that was published before the choke was passed and the main 3 pitches were re-bolted... however that stuff that on the web that is constantly updated by those people at the front end of it must be an in factual load of rubbish. "
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the guide, I'll be more than happy to pay for my copy, and I'll enjoy reading it on the bog.
But my only problem with it , is that it will become out of date very quickly.
Actually - hurry up and get the bloody thing published cause that means a shit load of cave will be discovered a week after it hits the shelves
The basis on which earlier editions of CoPD were published by Dalesman was that volunteer cavers did the work and DCA was given the royalties - which were spent on maintaining access for cavers. (This isn't cheap to do!) Sadly, after a change of ownership, Dalesman remaindered the 1991 edn. without telling us what they were going to do and then dropped out of publishing such guidebooks altogether.
We have looked at lulu and other such routes for publishing/printing ourselves but have concluded that we really needed to go with a professional firm to do the standard of job we want. The credit crunch has made life difficult for the moment but we do intend to go ahead.
John, Iain and others have put a tremendous amount of work into the new CoPD and we're very nearly there. DCA itself has agreed to underwrite the publication and, naturally, will expect to get a return on its money - which will be spent as before, i.e. in maintaining access for all cavers.
There is a place for web-based information, particularly for access information which needs to be updated regularly, and we will make sure this appears on the DCA website. But you can't beat a good book!
Hopefully, once the last few problems have been ironed out, we'll be able to go ahead and those who love books will get what they've been waiting for so patiently.
Jenny Potts,
DCA Secretary
We have looked at lulu and other such routes for publishing/printing ourselves but have concluded that we really needed to go with a professional firm to do the standard of job we want. The credit crunch has made life difficult for the moment but we do intend to go ahead.
John, Iain and others have put a tremendous amount of work into the new CoPD and we're very nearly there. DCA itself has agreed to underwrite the publication and, naturally, will expect to get a return on its money - which will be spent as before, i.e. in maintaining access for all cavers.
There is a place for web-based information, particularly for access information which needs to be updated regularly, and we will make sure this appears on the DCA website. But you can't beat a good book!
Hopefully, once the last few problems have been ironed out, we'll be able to go ahead and those who love books will get what they've been waiting for so patiently.
Jenny Potts,
DCA Secretary
Cave_Troll
Active member
no. work does not become "public domain" if the copyright owner does not notice or object to any breach of copyright.
google work on the basis that they scan a book and only let you see a page thats relevant to your search. if you want to see the rest of the article / book you need to buy it from amazon.
google work on the basis that they scan a book and only let you see a page thats relevant to your search. if you want to see the rest of the article / book you need to buy it from amazon.
bubba
Administrator
This isn't true - Google Books has many out of print titles you can't buy anywhere. There are many full preview books and many public-domain books too. They will be offering a service whereby an out of print book will be able to be purchased from them online in the future.Cave_Troll said:
Anyway, imo, not allowing an out of print book to be shown online, even though the information within it is over 15 years old is just petty and restrictive to the community that is crying out for it.
caving_fox
Active member
It's OT but
Is massively unfair to the authors though. Hence the lawsuits over Google books. Those living authors still deserve their compensation for the time they put in to creating those books, which Google is denying them.
Is massively unfair to the authors though. Hence the lawsuits over Google books. Those living authors still deserve their compensation for the time they put in to creating those books, which Google is denying them.
Peter Burgess
New member
As everything I have written is self-published using POD, then strictly speaking, the books were permanently out of print from the day they were published (or so I have read somewhere). Each small batch I order is another print run. When they are all sold, they are out of print again. I would be seriously p155ed off if someone started posting them up on a website thinking it was OK because they were "out of print".
bubba
Administrator
If a book is out of print, and has been for years then the authors aren't being denied anything since they would be getting no income from it anyway.caving_fox said:
The new agreements that Google are putting in place will actually allow some recompense for such authors without them needing to re-publish.
Peter Burgess
New member
But you are removing from them the incentive to do another print run, if they so choose. Not so relevant for a book with out of date information though.
