Caves on Foel Fraith

[ChrisJC]

We decided to visit Ogof Dan Y Lleuad Wen on Saturday. We spend about 3 hours scouring the hillside looking for it        . The grid reference in 'Caves of South Wales' is at odds with the description 'to the northeast of Pwll Swnd'
Anyway, we didn't find it, but we did find two other caves:

Blue lid with rocks on. About a 3m tight slot that seemed to go nowhere.

Two holes in the bottom of a shakehole. One was a 3m shaft, didn't go anywhere.
Other was about 1m away, drop into a passage, tight squeeze, then a climb down into a large breakdown chamber. Pot in the floor. Also a bedding plane. Way on is a narrow rift into another breakdown chamber, with a short further distance in the bottom. Some wires going throughout most of the cave.

Any idea what we found?, and also where the heck is Dan Y Lleuad Wen???

Ta,

Chris.

 

[ChrisJC]

It seems we found Dolphins Hole.

But where is Ogof Dan Y Lleuad Wen????

Chris.

 

[Rhys]

But where is Ogof Dan Y Lleuad Wen????

I've not knowingly been the the site, but according to Stratford's Caves of South Wales (1995) it's at SN75691851. The Black Mountain Cave Survey project puts it at SN 76320 18550 a good 600m away. Personally, I'd trust the latter source (My wife did some of the survey work!).

See the survey project's defunct website here: http://web.archive.org/web/20030805092546/www.cave-register.org.uk/html/sites_list.html

If NigR is around, I'm sure he'll be able to confirm.

Rhys

 

[ChrisJC]

Thanks Rhys. We were going on the Stratford grid ref, but we met some other poor souls with a GPS and what must have been the other grid ref. They were walking purposefully, so we followed them. Still couldn't find it!!!

Chris.

 

[gus horsley]

Caves in that area are notoriously difficult to locate.  We discovered Ogof Tepot (not my choice of name incidentally) and over the next few weeks failed to locate it except after much random wandering around.  I think it's one of those places where the entrances migrate around.  Sorry I can't help you but if you find a 6ft long iron bar, severely rusted by now, it's likely to be mine.  And no, I don't want it back...

 

[WillDeBeast]

We were the poor souls with the GPSr, an excellent tool for finding caves just as long as you have the correct GR  :-[

After you guys left we found Ogof Pwll Swnd straight away using GPSr  Poked our noses inside but time was getting on and our callout was for Ogof Dan-y-Lleuad Wen so didnt venture in too far.

Back at the car park we reccied (spelling) the 2 entrances for the Ogof Pasg - Ogof Foel Fawr through trip (which we did on the Sunday ( Great little trip)) and the entrance for Ogof Gwynt yr eira (Is this cave still accessable? The entrance shaft has corregated iron sheets over it and a huge boulder has been placed/ fallen on top of them)

All in all not a great weekend for SRT practicing 

 

[ChrisJC]

Seems we're not the only ones finding cave location difficult on Foel Fraith:

http://www.mwbeale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/void/ogof_pwll_swnd.html

Chris.

 

[NigR]

.......and the entrance for Ogof Gwynt yr eira (Is this cave still accessable? The entrance shaft has corregated iron sheets over it and a huge boulder has been placed/ fallen on top of them)

Yes, Ogof Gwynt yr Eira is still open but if you go there take great care as it is very, very loose in places. Not a good place for inexperienced cavers or SRT practice (unless it is practice at dodging falling rocks that you are after). Please put the covers back after any visits - the current iron sheets are not in great nick and the plan is to replace them in the near future.

 

[WillDeBeast]

But where is Ogof Dan Y Lleuad Wen????

The Black Mountain Cave Survey project puts it at SN 76320 18550 a good 600m away. Personally, I'd trust the latter source (My wife did some of the survey work!).

See the survey project's defunct website here: http://web.archive.org/web/20030805092546/www.cave-register.org.uk/html/sites_list.html

If NigR is around, I'm sure he'll be able to confirm.

These were the co-ords we were using but had no joy with. Just noticed some more co-ords on the survey i had putting it at :SN 7669 1851 just the other side of the northern most pond on the col. someone must have the correct co-ords? Is the cave worth this much trouble finding anyway? 

 

[NigR]

One of the pleasures of caving in a wild, unspoilt region such as the Black Mountain is that it takes a certain amount of effort, skill and judgement to find the caves in the first place. It's a pretty good natural selection process really - if you can't locate the entrances then you probably aren't really up to going down them, so reducing the chances of causing damage to yourself or what is, due to the paucity of visits, a very well-preserved underground environment.

Why does everybody want everything given to them on a plate these days? It saddens me that here we have two different groups bemoaning the fact that they could not find a particular cave yet no mention is made of the beautiful area in which they find themselves. By contrast, here is an account of a trip to the same place by another visiting party recently:

Saturday 7th July
Ogof Pwll Swnd
Andy, Rachel, Neil, Judi and Megan
Caves of South Wales says OPS is not difficult to find and has a cairn at the entrance.  Neither statement is correct.  Actually we didn't too bad considering we found the cave within about thirty minutes or arriving in the  approximate location zone but, be warned, it's one very small entrance in one very big moor.  We only had time to visit the 'old' series but found it quite pleasant and worthwhile.  The passages are mostly quite spacious and pleasantly decorated in places.  We left the '71 extensions for another time after 2 hours in the cave.  The view across the Black Mountain from the entrance has got to be one of the wildest and most panoramic that any UK entrance can offer.  We enjoyed the walks, both ways, taking only an hour to get back.  A very pleasant day on and under the finest wilderness in S Wales.

Now, who do you think had the more enjoyable experience? Perhaps it is no coincidence that the people who achieved their goals were those who showed the most empathy for their surroundings. As for the others, and anyone else who wants to simply put another tick in their (not so accurate) guidebook, I would suggest they think again because they won't get very far. If, on the other hand, you come intent on gaining an appreciation for the unique place we have here you will very likely find what you are looking for - the mountain itself will see to that.

 

[WillDeBeast]

if you can't locate the entrances then you probably aren't really up to going down them, so reducing the chances of causing damage to yourself or what is, due to the paucity of visits, a very well-preserved underground environment.

What a load of DRIBBLE. Even the best cavers in the world would struggle to find a cave on barren moorland without a decent set of co-ords or description. With literally 100s of sink holes, cracks etc it would take hours and hours to eliminate each possible site.
Being able to locate a cave or not has no relation at all to how you behave in a cave, if that were the case then all our caves would be in prestine condition as those who found them wouldnt damage them 

Why does everybody want everything given to them on a plate these days? It saddens me that here we have two different groups bemoaning the fact that they could not find a particular cave yet no mention is made of the beautiful area in which they find themselves.

More DRIBBLE. When you life 100s of miles away you rely on guidebooks/reports etc to plan your weekends away CAVING From the comfort of your own home you can produce an itinerary that is suitable for all members of the party.With limited time you try to make the most of what time you have so when a guidebook gives a 10 digit grid reference ( accurate to within a few metres) you would assume that that is where the cave entrance will be ( give or take 20 metres) If it isnt then you must ask what is the point in publishing co-ords to this accuracy?
If on the other hand we were told ' the cave is in one of over 100 sink holes scattered over a kmsq, good luck ' then we would probably not bothered and chose an easier to locate cave as we were here to enjoy our hobby ,CAVING,in the limited time we had, which is why we like things...

given to them on a plate

As for not mentioning the beautiful area... this thread was simply to ask if any one knew the exact location because we couldnt find it. Had we been writing a trip report then it would have been posting in the " Trip Report" category and it would indeed have mentioned the beautifulness of the area (not dissimilar to the barren parts of Dartmoor I live by) but it wasnt so we didnt.

Now, who do you think had the more enjoyable experience? Perhaps it is no coincidence that the people who achieved their goals were those who showed the most empathy for their surroundings.

Even more DRIBBLE. A group who walk an hour, find cave, have a good trip, and walk an hour back are always going to have had a better experience than a group who walked an hour, spent hours hunting in every little sink hole to no avail and then walked an hour back again. Its got nothing to do with empathy

...appreciation for the unique place we have here

The Black Mountains are not unique, North Dartmoor is almost identical , as is, i expect parts of most of our National Parks. so maybe its time you realised that and welcomed fellow cavers to your parts instead of slagging them off. I know we're not locals, not from round these parts, but we're all cavers out to enjoy caving.

And as for...

...the mountain itself will see to that

I'm not even going to waste my time typing DRIBBLE. oops I just did!!!

 

[ChrisJC]

Well said Will.

One of the pleasures of caving in a wild, unspoilt region such as the Black Mountain is that it takes a certain amount of effort, skill and judgement to find the caves in the first place. It's a pretty good natural selection process really - if you can't locate the entrances then you probably aren't really up to going down them, so reducing the chances of causing damage to yourself or what is, due to the paucity of visits, a very well-preserved underground environment.

I rather think the lack of success in finding the cave is down to bum information rather than a lack of effort or skill.

Why does everybody want everything given to them on a plate these days? It saddens me that here we have two different groups bemoaning the fact that they could not find a particular cave yet no mention is made of the beautiful area in which they find themselves.

We did appreciate the area, in fact the girls sunbathed whilst the boys systematically searched the wrong part of the moor. But after all, it's a caving forum, and I tried to be brief and on-topic, rather than rambling shit like this thread has become.

By contrast, here is an account of a trip to the same place by another visiting party recently:
Saturday 7th July
Ogof Pwll Swnd
Andy, Rachel, Neil, Judi and Megan
Caves of South Wales says OPS is not difficult to find and has a cairn at the entrance.  Neither statement is correct.  Actually we didn't too bad considering we found the cave within about thirty minutes or arriving in the  approximate location zone but, be warned, it's one very small entrance in one very big moor.  We only had time to visit the 'old' series but found it quite pleasant and worthwhile.  The passages are mostly quite spacious and pleasantly decorated in places.  We left the '71 extensions for another time after 2 hours in the cave.  The view across the Black Mountain from the entrance has got to be one of the wildest and most panoramic that any UK entrance can offer.  We enjoyed the walks, both ways, taking only an hour to get back.  A very pleasant day on and under the finest wilderness in S Wales.

Please don't forget we set out looking for Ogof Dan Y Leuad Wen, not OPS with cairn.

Now, who do you think had the more enjoyable experience? Perhaps it is no coincidence that the people who achieved their goals were those who showed the most empathy for their surroundings. As for the others, and anyone else who wants to simply put another tick in their (not so accurate) guidebook, I would suggest they think again because they won't get very far. If, on the other hand, you come intent on gaining an appreciation for the unique place we have here you will very likely find what you are looking for - the mountain itself will see to that.

What a load of bull!!, how exactly does an empathy for your surroundings take you to the correct shakehole in the many hundreds there are on the hill? :chair:

One attraction of caving is that almost without exception, the folk you meet are good honest down to earth types whom it is a pleasure to spend time with (e.g. Will + lady friend). You so rarely meet elitists who are as welcoming to their patch as a porcupine.....

Chris.

 

[NigR]

how exactly does an empathy for your surroundings take you to the correct shakehole in the many hundreds there are on the hill?

The very fact that you need to ask this question demonstrates perfectly why you were unable to find the cave you were looking for.

Why do people want everything done for them these days? Why is everyone just after the quick fix? Why are folk so dependent on guidebooks? What has happened to good old-fashioned initiative?

Two points I would like to make for the benefit of anyone else who may be considering visiting the caves of the Black Mountain in the near future:

A GPS is a useful tool for finding caves in poor visibility or for navigating your way back to the road in the dark after a long trip. If you need to rely on one in perfect weather conditions on a warm sunny day in the middle of August then you should ask yourself whether you should be there at all.

Mention was made in one of the posts about SRT practice. The only caves on the Black Mountain really suited to SRT practice are Pwll Dwfn and Arthur's Pot. All the other vertical caves, including those mentioned in this thread, can be descended using SRT but if you feel that you are in need of practice they should be avoided. Some of the pitches (tho' short) are tight and awkward, making it particularly strenuous on the return, and rigging can be problematical in places. Ladder and lifeline is by far the better option if you have the slightest doubt as to your SRT ability.

Finally, let me emphasise that cavers from all areas are welcome on the Black Mountain and always have been. Come here with the right attitude and you will be well rewarded. Adopt the same approach as has been demonstrated throughout this thread and you will go away bitter and frustrated.

I know which I would rather choose.

 

[Peter Burgess]

how exactly does an empathy for your surroundings take you to the correct shakehole in the many hundreds there are on the hill?

The urban parallel is people who rely on the Underground to find their way around London. If forced to go on foot, many people wouldn't have a clue where to go. Maybe slightly off-topic, but I do have sympathy with some of what NigR says.

 

[ChrisJC]

how exactly does an empathy for your surroundings take you to the correct shakehole in the many hundreds there are on the hill?

The very fact that you need to ask this question demonstrates perfectly why you were unable to find the cave you were looking for.

Sorry to be obtuse, but I still don't follow. I am entirely cogniscent of cave development, it's impact on the overlying landscape etc, but I don't see how that will take you to the 'right' shakehole on this particular featureless piece of hillside. And I know I am not alone in being unable to identify the shakehole that 'went', as I came across a good number up there that had been dug in vain, presumably by keener cavers than I who still didn't empathise

Why do people want everything done for them these days? Why is everyone just after the quick fix? Why are folk so dependent on guidebooks? What has happened to good old-fashioned initiative?

Well we had enough initiative to organise a group from Edinburgh, Manchester, Cambridge, Plymouth, London and Cardiff to all converge in the cafe in Brynaman on the Saturday morning, with a cave in mind, the right equipment, a grid reference, a guide book with cave location, description, an OS map and a compass. What else would you suggest we need?

Two points I would like to make for the benefit of anyone else who may be considering visiting the caves of the Black Mountain in the near future:
[snip]
Finally, let me emphasise that cavers from all areas are welcome on the Black Mountain and always have been. Come here with the right attitude and you will be well rewarded. Adopt the same approach as has been demonstrated throughout this thread and you will go away bitter and frustrated.

I rather thought that we came well equipped and with the right attitude. We just couldn't find the cave we were looking for even though we had plenty of navigation aids. I believe we were unable to succeed on account of having bum information, nothing more, nothing less.

We'll be back one day, and hopefully find it more easily.

If you are able to offer some constructive comments on where the entrance is, or how we might approach it differently, I'm all ears.

Chris.

 

[ChrisJC]

how exactly does an empathy for your surroundings take you to the correct shakehole in the many hundreds there are on the hill?

The urban parallel is people who rely on the Underground to find their way around London. If forced to go on foot, many people wouldn't have a clue where to go. Maybe slightly off-topic, but I do have sympathy with some of what NigR says.

If you are not blessed to live in London, and you have some initiative, you would obtain a Tube map and use it to get about. If you had to travel on foot, you would source a street map instead. We were not from Foel Fraith, so we obtained the best paper guides we could (i.e. OS & Caves of South Wales). Sadly we still failed.

I still don't see why we're such tossers for trying to find a cave with the aid of a guide book and OS map???

Chris.

P.S. I'm still interested to know where the entrance is........ Does anybody actually know???

 

[gus horsley]

P.S. I'm still interested to know where the entrance is........ Does anybody actually know???

Dunno mate.  It was discovered since I was last there. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

how exactly does an empathy for your surroundings take you to the correct shakehole in the many hundreds there are on the hill?

The urban parallel is people who rely on the Underground to find their way around London. If forced to go on foot, many people wouldn't have a clue where to go. Maybe slightly off-topic, but I do have sympathy with some of what NigR says.

If you are not blessed to live in London, and you have some initiative, you would obtain a Tube map and use it to get about. If you had to travel on foot, you would source a street map instead. We were not from Foel Fraith, so we obtained the best paper guides we could (i.e. OS & Caves of South Wales). Sadly we still failed.

I still don't see why we're such tossers for trying to find a cave with the aid of a guide book and OS map???

Chris.

P.S. I'm still interested to know where the entrance is........ Does anybody actually know???

Can't help you with where the entrance is. And I'm not criticising anyone - fair dos for having a go at finding a cave in the middle of nowhere. Just one thought - with such a disparate group of people from all over the country, and none actually having been to this cave before, I assume you all accepted that there was a risk that you would not find the cave given its wild location? I've been to Pant Mawr Pot many times - nothing like so remote - but I'm sure there will be future occasions when I struggle to find it in the mist and rain. It's just one of those places! Was there no opportunity for someone to do a recce beforehand to make sure you knew where it was?

 

[WillDeBeast]

I assume you all accepted that there was a risk that you would not find the cave given its wild location?

As i previously mentioned:

....so when a guidebook gives a 10 digit grid reference ( accurate to within a few metres) you would assume that that is where the cave entrance will be ( give or take 20 metres) If it isnt then you must ask what is the point in publishing co-ords to this accuracy?

Hence we assumed we would be able to find the cave. Obviously we assumed wrong  :-[

By the lack of constructive comment I too am beginning to wonder whether any of the locals actually know the whereabouts of this cave, and instead of just coming out and admitting they've never found it, start slagging off and belittling those of us who have tried and failed and are not to ashamed to admit it and ask for help.

Maybe this cave has just got fed up of being part of this magic mountain and sprouted legs and trotted off to a more embracing caving region 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Technology never has, and never will be able to compensate for human error. Rubbish in = rubbish out.