Caving First Aid

[Smithers]

The the president of the UNCC has been offered the opportunity to send some of our members on a first aid course at ?100 a head, and we're currently in the process of deciding whether this is a worthwhile expenditure.

Whilst I appreciate that knowledge of first aid practice would undoubtedly be beneficial, the first aid course in question is not caving specific, and as such I wonder how much of what is taught would be useful and or relevant whilst underground.  Obviously knowledge is a good thing, but if what the course teaches relies on being able to apply techniques and medical resources which we might not posses whilst underground, then ultimately any gained knowledge will be of little use surely?  To my mind the best thing that we could do to enhance our safety and care to an injured party would be to leave medical aid to the professionals and ensure that in the mean time we could prepare the way as much as possible for a rescue etc.

As a university club, ?100 a head is rather a lot of money, especially considering the high turnover of the average member (e.g. 3 years as a student).  As such I've tried to suggest a number of alternatives and wanted to know whether these might be feasible/what people think?

Option 1.
Find a first aid course geared specifically to cavers.  Does such a course exist, how expensive would this be?

Option 2.
Persuade CRO to let us become involved with one of their practice rescues (we could even volunteer some "injured bodies") in exchange for a financial or beer contribution.

Option 3.
Contact the Newcastle University Wilderness Medics, as these guys are a local resource and we could specify our needs exactly (i.e. what to do in the event of broken bones, stopping bleeding, concussion, or other trauma etc) whilst not having to pay much (again being students beer or food would probably be sufficient payment).

So I guess the main questions here are does anyone know of any caver specific first aid courses, or whether CRO might be willing to provide some basic first aid training or pre-evacuation advice in exchange for beer/financial donations?

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Daz_of_caving]

Not sure about that,

I have a St Jhons abulance lifesaver plus (basic first aid) course tho

Daz

 

[seddon]

Most potentially serious accident I saw recently was someone falling out of a top bunk, on to their head.

If your team gets into wilderness areas, you'll probably be at greater risk on the surface anyway e.g. doing carries. I wouldn't stress about courses not being cave specific; but you do want a good outdoors first aid course, which I think would cover the majority of your needs.

Bear in mind that in terms of treatment a cave is just like a mountainside except:

i) it takes longer for paramedics to reach you (but not if you're not carrying a mobile, or have no reception - you might do better in a cave!)

ii) the mountainside may be much colder and nastier, possibly even wetter

Incidentally - helping a rescue team is always an eye - opener. But they will have access to kit and drugs that you just won't have, most likely. It would be worthwhile to do *as well as* attend a first aid course, but perhaps not *instead of*.

Also consider - if you send two or three on a course, they could reasonably pass on good practice to others, which would increase value considerably. Sure, these others couldn't use this as any sort of qualification, nor would the training passed on have any formal worth...but it's good to have some knowledge of this.

If everyone in the population could maintain a safe airway in someone unconscious, then far fewer drunks would drown in their own puke (surely a useful bit of information in a caving / student club?).

End of rant...

 

[Ian Adams]

I am more than likely going to get sat on hard for this but I think it needs saying ?.

The problem with ?First Aid? courses is that they are primarily political nonsense and part of the last upteen years of ?job creation?. I can remember (and I will wager that a lot of members on here will too) that a first aid course took around 2 hours. Now they seem to range from a minimum 2 days and up to 10 days. Why? Has our environment become that much unsafer? With all the HSE stuff we have been drowned in (job creation?) shouldn?t we already be safer?

Politics aside, first aid knowledge underground is, of course, essential and probably life saving if the need arises and your question has a great deal of merit. I think the answer(s) you may receive (not least mine) will be prejudice with politics and you may need to cut through it all to find what you actually ?need/want?.

The first hurdle is to decide ?which? first aid course to enrol on and as you have already surmised, there are a number and they are expensive. You can?t decide on this until you understand some basic premise; For instance;

Is the ?recovery position? the same for an injured person (non-caver) as it would be for a person who has been strung up and stuck fast on his/her harness during SRT for an excessive period of time?

How does hypothermia compare as a risk to a caver as opposed to a surface casualty ?

As a qualified first aider ?. Does that group member understand the legal implications should anything go wrong (how many TV adverts do we see promoting the compensation culture?)

The BCA leadership course requires that all leaders have a first aid qualification and I (personally) would suggest that you seek their advice on which course you should take even if it is more than ?100 per head.

That?s probably the best advice I can offer  ?.

Ian

 

[first-ade]

I have previously received first aid training (REC lvl2 16 hour course) from David Hepworth at http://www.extremecare.co.uk/.  He does a good job of doing a lot of scenarios to drill the basics into you (the most important part).  It doesn't say it on his website, but he is also a caver and will tailor the course to suit cavers.  He is also very good at navigating around university health and safety funds, and the club managed to get their most recent course at quite a good rate.

 

[seddon]

Seeing as Adrian has mentioned it, REC (Rescue Emergency Care) courses have a good reputation, and those I've attended have always felt worthwhile...

 

[Brendan]

As a doctor who does some first aid training for DCRO, as well as teaching wilderness medics on occasions, I would suggest looking for a specific outdoor first aid course with instuctors who understand about caving, and are ideally cavers as well.
The wilderness medics, while probably keen to help, will not be the best resource, as a lot of them will be students interested in learning about wilderness medicine rather than providers.
CRO will almost certainly prove useful; however, they carry equipment you won't have on standard trips, so may not be the best for first aid teaching. There are specific cave first aid courses in the Peak District, but I don't know about the Dales which I imagine would be more convenient! May not be the cheapest option, but probably the best and most useful

 

[cap n chris]

http://www.marlintraining.co.uk/courses/first-aid/outdoor-first-aid

One of many First Aid Courses attended (done this one twice) and probably the best IM(limited)O: the provider is also a caver and he can tailor the course as a cave-specific training event. Based in the north, IIRC.

 

[graham]

Recently heard an H&S consultant say "This place is obsessed with First Aid." He went on to explain that accident prevention is far more important an issue.

Having said that, as far as cavers are concerned a little bit of Wilderness Medicine training is far more important, as most first aid courses are predicated on the fact that a professional is only a phone call away. This is not necessarily true in caves.

 

[Kevlar]

I have previously received first aid training (REC lvl2 16 hour course) from David Hepworth at http://www.extremecare.co.uk/.  He does a good job of doing a lot of scenarios to drill the basics into you (the most important part).  It doesn't say it on his website, but he is also a caver and will tailor the course to suit cavers.  He is also very good at navigating around university health and safety funds, and the club managed to get their most recent course at quite a good rate.

To follow up a little on what Ade has said, having done his course twice I would totally recommend the extremecare course with Dave Hepworth.

Dave set up the scenarios so that we were practicing using the equipment we would normally take caving with us. I think this was much more useful than other courses I have gone on where you are using equipment and techniques that you simply wouldn't be able to use in most underground accident situations. It also made us think *alot* about the extra bits and bobs we could and should take with us.

 

[Smithers]

Thanks for the advice so far guys.  I've emailed Dave to ask about his 16 hour course, so hopefully he'll get back to me soon with some additional information.

Hopefully I can apply some pressure to the Newcastle Students Union to try and get them to cough up some more money for training, rather than having taking it out of our grant account, which is meant for equipment and transport costs, but this might be like trying to get blood from a stone.

Cheers,

Chris

 

[IanWalker]

hopefully he'll get back to me soon with some additional information.

Please post again when he does - this is stuff worth sharing.

Ian.

 

[Smithers]

Here's the response I've had from Dave (I'm sure he wont mind me posting it on here).

Hi Chris,

I would be more than happy to run a First Aid Course  for your caving club.

The courses I run are Rescue Emergency Care courses which are the
national standard for outdoor activities, (As taught at Plas y Brenin
the National Mountain Sports Centre) I don't do standard corporate
courses as they bore me senseless. All the courses are outdoor based
with a large practical and improvised equipment element, so people
actually learn through doing with the kit they have rather than
listening and with stuff they will never carry..

I would recommend the 2 day Emergency course which would give you more
than enough skills for caving. The course would cover all the injuries
you are likely to come across, from head injuries to spinal and
suspension trauma, hypothermia to drowning..

The cost for individuals is ?110 per person but for University groups of
12, I give a discount with the total cost being ?900 all inclusive. I
can also assist in getting you finance by forwarding info about a
bursary from SASA the student safety group, they will often pay up to
50% of the course fees for you.

If you feel this is of interest to you feel free to give me a call via
the details below (best after 8 pm).

It may also be of use to you to know I am an ex member of CRO and Comru
(mines rescue) so have a bit of caving experience.

Look forward to hearing from you.

David

 

[eatmecowpat]

Going back to H&S from the University they do now make it compulsary for 2 members to do a first aid corse. The only problem being that it is aimed more at the sports clubs with sprains and breaks and although it does help to know that when caving hypothermia and the like don't get mentioned... but the whole ABC's recovery position and the other basics are covered.

Personally I don't mind how much it costs but and even if it is never actually used its something necessary for us to be fully responsible.

Thanks for your help guys!

:hug:

 

[Cave_Troll]

I know SUSS once had a first aid course by a lovely lady from the Red Cross who suggests we buy a defib as they're "not very expensive any more"

 

[Smithers]

Probably not a good idea for students to go an buy a de-fib. How long would it be until they work out they can go fishing with it?

 

[Joel Corrigan]

A friend of mine runs the first aid courses for Cardiff Uni cavers, climbers, and the athletics union, and we also use him for the Dachstein Expedition crew.  I believe that some of the other uni clubs (Kent etc) have also had him along running courses too.  We used to teach diving together (I've taken him caving and cave diving a few times so he's got an idea of what our issues are) and he's had to deal with many emergencies over the years far from help so has far more practical experience than most.  Anyone who has attended the Expedition Training Workshop (2008, not '09) that we run every easter will remember him. 

Based in Birmingham so not a million miles from you.  He tailors courses to suit but in general he'll do a beefy (full) one-day course aimed at cavers, or 2 days including scenarios & lots of fake blood

Cost will be peanuts (thirty-odd quid a head depending on numbers) as he's one of these enthusiastic-types!  Suggest you give him a shout and see what he can do.  I don't recommend people lightly! 

Jeff Lewis, email: info@bfa2000.co.uk or tel 07890 717833

 

[MSD]

Many years ago I went on what was described as a "Mountain first aid course", also run by someone from Plas y Brenin. Totally excellent. Wish I had the time to do a refresher.

Mark

 

[ianball11]

Does one of the two people on the training have to go on every trip recognised by the Uni?

Ian B.

 

[Smithers]

Does one of the two people on the training have to go on every trip recognised by the Uni?

Ian B.

In response to your question Ian, at present no-one in the club has first aid training, although I believe it is mandatory that we take a first aid kit supplied by the university underground with us.  Sometimes this is conveniently forgotten as its usually just one more thing to carry and gets in the way, and is unlikely to be on much use unless someone has a headache.

With regards to after the training, based on current practice I don't think there will be a requirement for one of the two cavers who gains first aid training to be present on all trips.  But this could change in the future.

Chris