Caving for Charity or Profit

[graham]

Should teachers be paid for what they do?
Should bus drivers earn money?
Should anyone doing a job be expected to do it for love, nada, gratis? - and starve to death?

Should arms manufacturers be paid for what they do? Or Bullfighters?

 

[wormster]

Compared to this, money collected for a good cause by a few potholers having a laugh seems pretty clean to me. So good luck to 'em.

Mark

My point in a nutshell :halo:

 

[cap n chris]

Should teachers be paid for what they do?
Should bus drivers earn money?
Should anyone doing a job be expected to do it for love, nada, gratis? - and starve to death?

Should arms manufacturers be paid for what they do? Or Bullfighters?

Or soldiers?
Or politicians?
Or anything else which people may or may not have an aversion to?....

The answer is obviously "Yes".

 

[Hughie]

"Making profit from" is an emotionally loaded expression.

Try telling that to the taxman! 

"Making profit from" is an emotionally loaded expression.

For instance, do farmers "make a profit from the land" or "earn a living from it"?

In terms of the expressions, probably both. However, to earn a living suggests that work/toil is engaged in, the return for which is the ability to continue life on planet earth.

Profit is also what is left after expenses, depreciation, wages etc.. Therefore it's fair to say that in many instances self employed people make no profit whatsoever although they do manage to earn a living from their efforts.

Professional cavers ultimately do their job to earn profit (using it to live, pay tax, repay borrowings, reinvest, and increase net worth), just as I do, and just as any other business does. If a business/self employed person doesn't make a profit, then, eventually they become insolvent. One has to live on ones profits. Profit (unfortunately) doesn't come after "living" expenses - I'm afraid the Inland Revenue like their cut before you do (I can recommend an excellent accountant!!).

While we're on this topic. Can someone rationally and reasonably outline why people shouldn't be allowed to earn a living working in the countryside?

Has anyone argued otherwise?

This is heading way off thread. In my opinion Peter Burgess summed it up most adequately in his initial posts. If a professional caver can profit from caving (and profit it surely is - if it's not then he'd just be a normal everyday caver like most of the rest of us! Just as if I wasn't a profitable, professional farmer, I'd be a painter and decorator, or whatever), then I see no reason why an experienced caver can't do a couple of caves for charity. The general public would consider it such a bizzare thing to do that it would be eminently sponsorable, and that can only be a good thing.

 

[graham]

OK, fine. So the consensus is that it's OK to do whatever you like in a cave providing you get paid for it or raise some cash "for charity".

I disagree and my point is a simple one; if we wish to conserve the fragile environment (both underground and above ground) then we need to understand that every visit that we make to it is a privilege. Thus, the context behind every trip needs to be considered and anything that places unusual or unnecessary strain on that environment needs to be looked at very carefully.

That does not mean that professional guides must not work in caves, no. If someone wishes to experience that environment safely and carefully then going in the company of a guide is no bad thing. However, on the other hand if someone sets up, say, a management training consultancy which uses caves for team building exercises that could quite easily take place elsewhere and would not take place at all if this company did not exist and was not touting for business is clearly an unnecessary strain on the cave environment.

I could go into much more detail, but the basic underlying principle is clear. The reason for doing any caving trip should be the cave first last and foremost. If there is another motive then no matter how laudable that motive might be the trip is putting unnecessary pressure on the cave environment and an alternative should be sought.

This principle can certainly be applied in charity cases.

 

[zomjon]

Graham says that 'the basic underlying principle is clear. The reason for doing any caving trip should be the cave first last and foremost. If there is another motive then no matter how laudable that motive might be the trip is putting unnecessary pressure on the cave environment and an alternative should be sought.'

That's a very strong perspective. About 10yrs back I was involved in a sponsored event in aid of equipment for a local hospital. A gp of 5 of us were backed on how long it would take us to complete Aggy's Grand Circle. We approached it like we would any other taxing caving trip; some initial trips to spy out the complexities of parts of the route and then a sensible, fun round of this classic trip. We had a gd time, I got to do a trip I really wanted to do and a hospital got a financial boost. The pressure on the cave environment was no more because we did the trip as a charity event.

 

[graham]

Yes, it is a strong perspective, but I have spent the last few decades watching caves be degraded.

The thing I find alarming about your account, zomjon, is that you say that you "were backed on how long it would take ...". This implies to me - and please correct me if I am wrong - that the amount of money you raised depended on how fast you went. If so, then your movement through the cave was influenced by something quite unrelated to conditions on the trip. That raises both safety and conservation issues.

 

[Pitlamp]

I don't follow your logic entirely Graham - I disagree with that pseudoconclusion which is your  first paragraph (about everything being OK if you get paid).  It isn't a fair summary of the concensus.

But I definitely agree with the spirit of what you're trying to say.  The most important factor here is to educate people.  I am a caver and I also work in the show cave industry.  I see this as a tremendous opportunity to get across the way of thinking that you suggest.  I also use it as a chance to enthuse young people about the joys of going "proper" caving in the hopes that a few will get involved and help to do something about the rising (and unsustainable) average age of British cavers.

There are plenty of other cavers employed at show caves - just think of all the good they could do if they made full use of the chance to educate and recruit.  Come on caving show cave employees; do your bit!

 

[zomjon]

Graham, in answer to your fair point; 'The amount of money you raised depended on how fast you went.' No, it wasn't so much sponsored, as there was a winner who ever guessed the closest time to our finishing time, so for us, it was just like any other caving trip (We did not, and probably could not, speed through the cave).

 

[graham]

Graham, in answer to your fair point; 'The amount of money you raised depended on how fast you went.' No, it wasn't so much sponsored, as there was a winner who ever guessed the closest time to our finishing time, so for us, it was just like any other caving trip (We did not, and probably could not, speed through the cave).

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[graham]

I don't follow your logic entirely Graham - I disagree with that pseudoconclusion which is your  first paragraph (about everything being OK if you get paid).  It isn't a fair summary of the concensus.

But I definitely agree with the spirit of what you're trying to say.  The most important factor here is to educate people.  I am a caver and I also work in the show cave industry.  I see this as a tremendous opportunity to get across the way of thinking that you suggest.  I also use it as a chance to enthuse young people about the joys of going "proper" caving in the hopes that a few will get involved and help to do something about the rising (and unsustainable) average age of British cavers.

There are plenty of other cavers employed at show caves - just think of all the good they could do if they made full use of the chance to educate and recruit.  Come on caving show cave employees; do your bit!

OK, I admit the first line was a trifle harsh, but it was intended to make people think about some of the preceding posts.

I quite agree with the remainder of what you say, though of course I will enter caveats. Some show cave set ups are extremely good, have an excellent conservation ethic and entertain and educate people well. Some are not. I have visited working and abandoned show caves all over the place some are great some should never have been "developed". Some staff are great (& I have spent time taking enthusiastic non-caver guides on caving trips) and put over the subject well; some should be taken out and shot (I am thinking particularly of West Virginia, here.)

 

[Brains]

As I guessed, a can of worms but useful and well thought out points are being made.  Caves can appear to be permanent and fixed finite things, but a moment of reflection shows they are highly dynamic places that constantly change (the speed of change can be very slow to our monkey brains...). Personally, I would love to do a 3 Deeps, or a 3 Peaks / 3 Pots, but I would not do it for charity because 1) I cant be bothered with all the hassle and 2) Charity is something I deal with in other ways - my choice. I have done a 3 Peaks and found it very rewarding, but tiring. Sponsorship would, for me, have detracted from the experience. If others would be doing these trips anyway, and can go the extra mile to raise the cash as well, then good luck to them. The cave environment can be very fragile, but so are other environments. The modern society we live however means that a living can be made from such places without excessive damage, unlike mining, quarrying or taking stal for artificial grottos as has been the case in the past. The days of being frowned upon for "being in trade" are I hope long gone, but ethical best practice should always be advocated.

(As an aside, the best way to preseve wildlife is to keep it in formaldehyde, to conserve it is much more difficult. The presevation / conservation debate is something else entirely...)

 

[andymorgan]

That does not mean that professional guides must not work in caves, no. If someone wishes to experience that environment safely and carefully then going in the company of a guide is no bad thing. However, on the other hand if someone sets up, say, a management training consultancy which uses caves for team building exercises that could quite easily take place elsewhere and would not take place at all if this company did not exist and was not touting for business is clearly an unnecessary strain on the cave environment.

But I'm sure lots of management companies go team building by going caving with a leader? If there were no cave leaders this option woud not be available.
  This isn't an attack on professional cave leaders as I know some and they do a very good job :kiss2:, and educate people to cave 'environmentally soundly' from the start.

Someone above made slightly disparaging remarks about show caves being environmentally bad.

Where were these comments?

 

[newcastlecaver]

I'm not sure where I stand on the charity trips down caves, they are (as already stated) really only likely to be done by cavers who generally have a good idea of right and wrong and there are few 'non-cavers' who would embark on a charity caving trip on their own (???) However and perhaps more crucially have many people trid to raise money from caving, its not easy...

You ask someone you know/ someone at work:

CAVER: Hi, I'm going on a cave-a-thon at the weekend, will you sponsor me?

FRIEND: Don't you do that already?

CAVER: YEAH, but this is different,

FRIEND: so you want me to give you sponsorship for something you already do, enjoy and that won't really be a personal achievement like a marathon etc?

CAVER: YES

FRIEND: Ok then, and by the way, will you sponsor me, I'm driving to the lakes and back at the weekend- I'm gonna do it really quick.....  :-\

but.. if you can manage to get the money for charity then good on you...

 

[whitelackington]

Good point, Hughie. Surely, before digging commenced at Templeton there wasn't a cave there at all?.... Discuss.

That is exactly my point Hughie & Chris

If you want to find new cave, Brand new as in Carcass / Shute Sheve / Templeton/Hunter's Lodge Inn Sink / Rose Cottage / Thrupe / Honeymead / Little crapnell / Loxton Cavern

I think I have made my point, without digging, none of these caves would be available to us.
So there is a trade off off envoironmental impact and being able to get in 

 

[Pitlamp]

Andy Morgan - you asked where the disparaging comments about show cave sbeing environmentally bad were.  Take a look at "Graham's" first post of 11-31 a.m. (i.e. the first reply to Peter Burgess' original posting).

 

[graham]

Pitlamp: I suggest you visit the show caves of Dimnice or Divaca Jama to see the accuracy of that remark.

 

[Pitlamp]

Graham - if only I could afford to go off travelling and take a look as you suggest!  But if those caves are of concern to you why don't you do your posting on the potholers' forum in that country rather than ours? 

You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about show caves.  I accept that not all are the best models of environmental concern but there are very many benefits from having some caves available for public viewing.  My point is that those of us involved with our show caves should grab the opportunities which arise to get across the conservation idea to the large numbers of customers who visit.

 

[cap n chris]

A cave is a cave, is it not? In which case conservation of any cave is of concern to those who care about such things. I don't think the expression "chip on (your) shoulder about show caves" is valid.

 

[Chrissi]

Profit is also what is left after expenses, depreciation, wages etc.. Therefore it's fair to say that in many instances self employed people make no profit whatsoever although they do manage to earn a living from their efforts.

Hmm.  According to one of the better known accounting guides (by Wood & Sangster) profit is defined as "The result of selling goods or services for more than they cost".  This means, Chris, that profit is what you take out of the charges for your services after taking the costs for purchase and servicing of equipment, basic travel expenses and insurance (I assume you have insurance) out of the equation.  So, if you're paying yourself, buying beer etc then and having a few quid left in the bank you are making a profit.  If you were just breaking even (covering costs but not taking any money out for your own use ie wages) you would not be making a profit.  In self-employed terms "profit" and "making a living" are interchangable - you're not paying anyone else so you cannot consider the payment of wages to be a business expense. 

That having been said, it's usually the intention of every self-employed person (assisted by their accountant) to purposely not to show a nett profit and thus avoid paying more tax than absolutely necessary (so those little treats to yourself that you explain away as being essential business expenses... hidden profit my friend). 

As for cave conservation, that's a very subjective and emotive issue.  One person's conservation is another's vandalism.  To conserve a cave to the nth degree would require virtually sealing it off from the outside world ensuring that nothing could be changed.  Isn't there a budhist theology that every action has a resulting reaction?  Taking parties of paying novices into a cave always has a potential for damage. They do not have the appreciation of the environment that most (yes, most but not all) cavers have.  To them it's an adventure and certainly for some parties seeing if they can take a souvenir home's a challenge (regardless of whether YOU tell them not to). 

A caver intending to use his sport to raise money for a charity is not the same as professional cavers raising money for their own purposes.  Good luck to the chap.  Hope he manages to get the Three Deeps organised.  People will sponsor him because he will explain the efforts involved to meet the challenge and also because it's for a good cause.