Caving for Charity or Profit

[cap n chris]

Well put Mr. Andymorgan.

Rather than having to engage in defensive explanations of something which is legitimate perhaps the time is ripe for someone to explain, in rational, reasonable and coherent language, what's wrong with outdoor pursuit work.

And here's a tricky question for some of our dear readers and contributors to this marvellous thread:

What's your viewpoint on someone earning a living working as a cave leader who then gives some of their wages to charity?
Is it OK to cave for charity but not for wages?
Is it "bad" to cave for wages but then "made good again" if the money is given to charity?
Just a little bit of Devil's Advocacy, my friend(s) 

 

[Cave_Troll]

Don't we all 'profit' from caving and caves? We do caving for our own personal gratification: we have no real need to be in caves. Therefore as recreation cavers we can't take any moral high ground against those who get paid professionally or do it for charity.

absolutely. most of the people who really want to go down Titan want to get a big tick in their experiance / log book.

 

[kay]

Should teachers be paid for what they do?
Should bus drivers earn money?
Should anyone doing a job be expected to do it for love, nada, gratis? - and starve to death?

Should arms manufacturers be paid for what they do? Or Bullfighters?

Or soldiers?
Or politicians?
Or anything else which people may or may not have an aversion to?....

The answer is obviously "Yes".

I'm not sure the answer is that obvious

 

[cap n chris]

So it is not obvious to you that someone doing a job should get paid for it.

Why do you work, then, Kay? What do you buy things with? Do you carry a gun and just steal things as you go?

What planet do you live on? Is it full of fluffy kittens, fairies and smiling people wearing ribbons and flowers in their hair?

 

[kay]

So it is not obvious to you that someone doing a job should get paid for it.

Why do you work, then, Kay? What do you buy things with? Do you carry a gun and just steal things as you go?

What planet do you live on? Is it full of fluffy kittens, fairies and smiling people wearing ribbons and flowers in their hair?

Should a torturer get paid? If it is a regime which indulges in torture, then arguably he should get paid.

Should a hitman be paid? He's doing a job for someone. What about the chap who brings in the illegal immigrants? He's doing a job and should be paid. Where do you draw the line?

Maybe you draw the line at illegal activites. If your activity is within the laws of the country you are operating in, you should be paid.

What about war crimes, as ordered by higher authority in line with the policy of your government? A fundamental principle is that 'obeying orders' is not regarded as an adequate defence when you come to be tried by an international court.

I stand by my comment that it doesn't seem to me to be obvious that anyone who does a job should be paid. Sorry this has got up your nose so much.

 

[cap n chris]

I think you are probably the only person in the entire world who doesn't see it as obvious that people work in expectation of financial reward.

I find it alarming that you mention torturers, hitmen, illegal immigration and war criminals in a thread presently focussed on professional caving; do you consider paid cavers to be in similar categories? 

 

[damian]

I stand by my comment that it doesn't seem to me to be obvious that anyone who does a job should be paid. Sorry this has got up your nose so much.

I too am finding it rather difficult, kay, to understand where you are coming from on this one.

I think you are probably the only person in the entire world who doesn't see it as obvious that people work in expectation of financial reward.

I find it alarming that you mention torturers, hitmen, illegal immigration and war criminals in a thread presently focussed on professional caving; do you consider paid cavers to be in similar categories? 

FWIW I completely agree.

Damian.

 

[graham]

I find it alarming that you mention torturers, hitmen, illegal immigration and war criminals in a thread presently focussed on professional caving; do you consider paid cavers to be in similar categories? 

                                                                :tease:

 

[Roger W]

My, this one is generating a lot of heat!

With regard to management training, I have been on one or two outdoor courses where we were put through a series of situations where we were supposed to demonstate things like teamwork and leadership skills while dangling off rock faces or driving through snowdrifts along blocked roads trying to get to a bottle of whisky before any of the other teams.  And some people don't have a head for heights, and really need to wear khaki-coloured trousers and bicycle clips when abseiling down 80-foot cliffs.  And - as someone has said - you daren't bottle out 'cos there is a guy in the background with a clipboard noting down every sign of weakness.  Of course, some people do actually enjoy doing this sort of thing, but not everybody does.  That's why caver numbers are so low...  I haven't actually been down a cave as part of one of these exercises, although a few of us who really wanted to did visit Dow Cave as an "optional extra" on one of them - and very enjoyable it was, too 

I know "charities" have become  big business, but I do know two things:

1:  Some people do rely for their very lives on money that is provided by charities such as Tear Fund.

2:  People who would otherwise be very slow to part with their money in a good cause will sometimes be quite generous when asked to sponsor someone doing something that they would not want to do themselves.  Dunno why, but there it is.

So take good care of the caves! 

Do all the good you can wherever you can,

And if you can get people to part with some of their cash for a good cause by doing something you enjoy doing - and by that I mean caareful, responsible caving - excellent 

My fourpence -hapenny's worth. 

 

[MSD]

Maybe you draw the line at illegal activites. If your activity is within the laws of the country you are operating in, you should be paid.

What about war crimes, as ordered by higher authority in line with the policy of your government? A fundamental principle is that 'obeying orders' is not regarded as an adequate defence when you come to be tried by an international court.

The point is that international law is superior to the law of your country. Thus war crimes are illegal even if your government orders you to carry them out. Whether or not you might be prosecuted is of course a moot question which has more to do with politics than justice.

I think we are more than a little off-topic here.

Mark

 

[cap n chris]

I think we are more than a little off-topic here.

I'm still totally amazed that the topic of war crimes has cropped up in association with professional caving!

 

[bubba]

I'm posting this on behalf of Kay, who is having connection trouble and emailed this in...this doesn't mean it's my opinion or have endorsed her post, I'm just helping her out:

"I have connection problems and will not be posting to ukcaving for the foreseeable future. I can see that people have misunderstood me and think that I have said things that I have not said, and I would like to set the record straight. I apologise if what I have said has been unclear.

The basic points are:
Cap'n Chris said it was obvious that a person should be paid for their job, even if other people had an aversion to that job.
I said it was not obvious, and when Cap'n Chris challenged me, I gave examples of jobs so reprehensible that I thought it would be clear to everyone that people should not be paid for doing these jobs.

I agree that most people need to do work that they expect to be paid for (although many of us also do work for which we don't seek payment).

I do not think cavers, paid or unpaid, are in any way similar to torturers, hitmen, people traffickers or war criminals.
I am disappointed, given that I am not a complete newbie in ukcaving, that I should have been asked that question."

 

[Dep]

I think that anyone who finds a niche in the caving world doing something positive should gain whatever benefits that go with that position.
If this is simply being the sociable or active type who arranges trips then you gain friends and kudos (or enemies and reprobation! ), if this niche is producing specialist kit for cavers then there's an obvious livelihood, or if it is workings a  tour guide or instructor then it may be a paid job. Similarly if you are raising funds for a cahraity the they benefit directly and you gain a warm glow.

Basically any niche which can be found does no harm (and I think professionally educating people about caves/techniques/geology etc is a positive benefit to the community as a whole), if you happen to get paid for it even better and all tp the good.

Whilst people make a livelihood from caving either as instructors, guides or manufacturers there is a vested interest to keep the sport alive and kicking! Surely that can only be a good thing?



And also as devil's advocate: it does not (IMHO) automatically follow that you should be paid for a job unless you explicitly define 'job' as employment for which one is paid.

There are examples of jobs which do not attract a finacial return but which can gain material advantage, or perhaps free accomodation or favours. There is also slavery, and what about any society which does not have a monetary system?

But to get back to Peter's original thread, and CnC's modified question my answer is above: Any niche that can be found is ok if it works - thus anything goes.

 

[cap n chris]

Aha! It would appear that there has been a slight misunderstanding and that cavers weren't being lumped in as Nazis; although this doesn't mean that

a) there aren't Nazis who cave
b) there aren't cavers who are Nazis
c) there are jobs where you don't get paid
d) there aren't unpaid jobs which Nazis do
e) there are Nazis doing paid work
f) there are some charitable Nazis who work out of the kindness of their hearts expecting no great rewards

Confused?

So am I. But at least I'm not a Nazi (today).

Apologies offered all round and accepted.  :hug:

 

[AndyF]

HEre goes my tuppance.

There is nothing wrong with being a caving instructor, and getting paid for it, even if you keep the money. Its a respectable professional job that brings huge enjoyment to most participents...

Thinking about our club members, about half of them had their first taste of caving with an "outdoor pursuits" company, got hooked and took up the sport. With Uni clubs under pressure, this is a valuable route into caving for newbies.

People who go on about environment and conservation, then burn 10 gallons of fuel driving to the cave are in no position to critisise. All caving damages caves, paid, unpaid or for charity. People should not justify it for themselves, then be critical of others.

</rant>

 

[graham]

And here's my final 2p on this one.

What really started me off on this is the current attitude - not just in caving but in Society as a whole - that you are simply not allowed to criticise an activity, any activity, if it is carried out "for charity".

It is my firm belief that all activities, of all kinds, should be assessed on their own merits and ifthere is something of which you would not approve, you should not feel constrained to mute your criticism of it simply because the participants/perpetrators claim to be raising money for what they believe to be a good cause.

Rant over.

 

[cap n chris]

I fully concur with you, Graham.

 

[andymorgan]

I'm glad I don't work for a company who wants to send me on trips to scare the poo out of me, or 'encourages' me do exercise, work or whatever in my free time. Surely it shows more character to tell them to f*** off, rather than being a lackey who does exactly what people tell you to do.


As my mother said when I was younger 'if so and so tells you to jump off a cliff would you do it?'

 

[cap n chris]

As my mother said when I was younger 'if so and so tells you to jump off a cliff would you do it?'

But you're a world class BASE jumper so the answer is "Yes, Mum".

 

[AndyF]

.. Surely it shows more character to tell them to f*** off, rather than being a lackey who does exactly what people tell you to do.

It does show more character, but then companies aren't generally looking for people with character, because they are a nuisance in the workplace. They WANT the lackeys who do exactly what they are told.

It's a bit like that "Apprentice" program. anyone who thought about it would tell Alan Sugar to f*** right off and keep his job. If they had balls they would start their own company, not fight over the right to be a slave working for an obnoxious git.