Caving for Charity or Profit

[cap n chris]

Taking parties of paying novices into a cave always has a potential for damage. They do not have the appreciation of the environment that most (yes, most but not all) cavers have.

Surely taking parties of non-paying novices into a cave always has a potential for damage too.

They (novices) do not have the appreciation of the environment that most cavers have. Hardly surprising. They're novices - by definition they don't appreciate the underground environment because they've never been there. One of the points in taking people underground is to educate them about the fragility of the environment. Yes, there's a conflict between conservation and access. If you want to preserve things, kill people in their millions.

If you want to save the planet buy nothing, go nowhere, get sterilised and die young.

The use of the expression "profit" instead of "earning a living" was what I took issue with - the word "profit" has a negative emotional loading in the minds of many people. Doing something "for a profit" is frowned upon more than if someone was doing something "for a living"; living is "good", profit is "bad". Do teachers work in schools because they are only in it for the money or because they like the company of children or because they gain a sense of achievement for their efforts? Depending on the answer given they are at risk of being labelled money-grubbers, paedophiles or weirdos when in fact they are simply teachers. IMHO this thread was begun with a skewed title, cueing people into taking a negative stance against people who earn a living from the countryside.

 

[Chrissi]

There's a difference between a group of novices who genuinely wish to experience something new and are interested in the scientific side of the cave environment and a group of 'team building' executives or kids who either don't want to be there or think it's all a bit of a joke and that the leader is some sort of sad git who knows nothing compared to them.

As for teachers and money, if the pay wasn't good (published starting salary straight out of uni is around 19k) a lot admit they would seriously consider other careers as facing a class of teenagers who can abuse you all they like and you're not even permitted to verbally chastise them back without fear of retribution is no fun whatsoever.

 

[cap n chris]

There's a difference between a group of novices who genuinely wish to experience something new and are interested in the scientific side of the cave environment and a group of 'team building' executives or kids who either don't want to be there or think it's all a bit of a joke and that the leader is some sort of sad git who knows nothing compared to them.

It is part of a qualified cave leader's training to specifically make overt mention of conservation as a topic on every trip underground with groups - it is unlikely that all members of a caving group (whether paying - or non-paying ... people tagging along on a club trip for example) would be interested in the scientific side of the cave environment.

Why do you put team building in quotes? - this seems to symbolise something. Surely whenever people go into caves it is fundamental that they function as a team? - club cavers do this so why shouldn't other people?

Anyone who doesn't want to visit the cave (as part of a group, be it school, team building or leisure) is informed that if they do not wish to partake in the activity they are welcome to be excused; cave leader training stipulates that all visits are at the option of the participants and that no-one should ever be forced into going underground.

There will always be children who think that adults are sad gits who know nothing compared to them. Firstly, it's an irony. Secondly, it's got nothing to do with any particular activity - in the minds of such youth ALL adults are sad gits, no matter what topic they are knowledgeable in.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

A thousand well led trips will do less damage than just one which is badly led.  It is very easy to point a finger at professionaly led trips and resort to a sort of Orwellian chant of 'club good - instructor bad'. 

In reality caving clubs do not have an unblemished record.  It was members of Mendip's largest club who decided, back in the early 90s, to indulge a rather silly idea of digging out the Double Pots, and who transported a large volume of junk underground to facilitate this.  The project remained a bar room fantasy but the rubbish in question, including two long flexible hoses, stayed on in situ for several years, despite being obvious to every passing caver (and despite the club in question 'adopting' the cave).  In the end it was me, professional caver, who organised some of my clients to remove the offending items.

Let me give another example.  I have a photo of the big stal flow in Bat Passage (GB) taken in 1972 and looking virtually pristine.  It is now smothered in mud because the cavers path runs too close and it has been used as a steadying hand hold.  All it needed was one bit of tape, just one bit of tape, to shift the path away or just the tiniest bit of extra care from passing cavers and it could be as pristine as recorded in my original picture. 

In the end there are just two types of caving - good and bad - and that is the reality we really need to confront.

 

[Chrissi]

Cap'n Chris, "Team Building" refers to the Corporate Team Building training favoured by many large companies, usually to get a number of junior managers to work together or improve leadership skills.  In most cases staff are told they are going on the course whether they like it or not with the main purpose being to see how staff cope in a hostile and alien environment which is designed to cause stress, bring out their fears and weaknesses etc.  In fact many companies will not send staff who might enjoy the experience (or who already participate in some of the activities) on the courses.  Hence although the participants are told by the leader that they don't have to do the activity if they don't want to all know how that their bosses will see this as a sign of weakness and will endure.  I'm surprised that as a professional trainer you are not aware of this (or are you just certified for cave leadership rather than a being a qualified trainer?).

(I applaud Andy's comments that he has used his professional trips to clear up cave passage - takes the experience into a new dimension).

 

[cap n chris]

What specific instructions do club cavers receive (or get assessed on) with regards to conservation techniques, practice, observations, remedial action(s) etc.?

Forgive me if I'm wrong (which I very well may be!) but surely club cavers are just people who have joined a club and who own some kit: such people subsequently have privileged access to some very fragile caves and may well be unobserved while there. What purpose is their trip achieving? - surely it's often just pure tourism.

Do club cavers ever wake up in the middle of the night, sitting bolt upright in bed, wondering about the damage their trips cause?

 

[cap n chris]

"Team Building" refers to the Corporate Team Building training favoured by many large companies, usually to get a number of junior managers to work together or improve leadership skills.  In most cases staff are told they are going on the course whether they like it or not with the main purpose being to see how staff cope in a hostile and alien environment which is designed to cause stress, bring out their fears and weaknesses etc.  In fact many companies will not send staff who might enjoy the experience (or who already participate in some of the activities) on the courses.  Hence although the participants are told by the leader that they don't have to do the activity if they don't want to all know how that their bosses will see this as a sign of weakness and will endure.  I'm surprised that as a professional trainer you are not aware of this (or are you just certified for cave leadership rather than a being a qualified trainer?).

What is it with corporations, team building, large companies etc. that is wrong?

Surely a group of people presenting themselves for a caving trip is just the same as any other? - the trip underground rarely varies, following established routes. The wishes of the company or its managers DO NOT override the veto the caving leader has on the trip or over the participants. If someone doesn't want to go underground they don't have to. The bosses do not, to my knowledge, have a written/verbal report on how well (or otherwise) individual attendees perform while underground - such events are merely engaged in and the staff return to work either performing better, the same or worse than they did before.

 

[graham]

Graham - if only I could afford to go off travelling and take a look as you suggest!  But if those caves are of concern to you why don't you do your posting on the potholers' forum in that country rather than ours? 

You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about show caves.  I accept that not all are the best models of environmental concern but there are very many benefits from having some caves available for public viewing.  My point is that those of us involved with our show caves should grab the opportunities which arise to get across the conservation idea to the large numbers of customers who visit.

Pitlamp: I do not have a chip on my shoulder about Show caves per se I have posted elsewhere recently that some have been done well and do their jobs - conservation, education, entertainment - very well. I, personally, have very good relationships with several show cave managements in Britain. Some don't and that's another story. My reason for quoting those two examples is that in doing so I am not opening a political can of worms on anybody's doorstep over here.

 

[graham]

... If someone doesn't want to go underground they don't have to.

Sadly not always the case. 

 

[Chrissi]

Cap'n Chris, you underestimate the peer pressure involved in these corporate exercises.  Of course the boss will know who 'wimped out' and 'let the side down'.  For a lot of large companies perceived performance against your peers is vitally important so no matter how terrified the individual is it will take a lot of soul searching to decline the trip (as somewhere down the line it will be taken into account when promotion's on the cards).  I presume you've never worked for a company where you had to prove your ability to constantly perform at a high level and where there are many others doing exactly the same thing.

Club cavers are there because they want to be so will have discussed matters of conservation etc in the pub with their peers at some point - it's hard to avoid such discussions.  I've never heard of a club caver who didn't want to ever go underground (although I do know of one who has been know to say that he's fightened of dark, tight spaces etc but caving's all he's good at).

 

[cap n chris]

"Not always the case" may be a factually correct expression but so is "Generally always the case" 

 

[cap n chris]

For a lot of large companies perceived performance against your peers is vitally important so no matter how terrified the individual is it will take a lot of soul searching to decline the trip (as somewhere down the line it will be taken into account when promotion's on the cards).  I presume you've never worked for a company where you had to prove your ability to constantly perform at a high level and where there are many others doing exactly the same thing.

You presume wrong. Having been pressurised to "slow down or we'll get the union rep on to you" and following my response that I wasn't in the union so they could f*** off, my experience of peer pressure is probably different to yours. Some people have the strength of character to resist peer pressure; has it occurred to you that bosses might actually be looking for that character trait?

 

[Chrissi]

The slow down or else tends to be shop floor level and not white collar.  If you're in finance, sales etc the message is always "more and faster".  I think perhaps your experience is more in the manual labour end of the market.  It's white collar management potential staff (or hard-hitting sales staff) who are likely to be sent on team building courses.  Manual labour and call centre staff just get taught how to do the job in most companies.  It's very rare to find a company who'll pay for non-essential training for staff who do repetitive manual tasks or follow a script on the phone. 

 

[cap n chris]

Desk-bound employees frequently have such a dire level of personal fitness that the trips they go on are so straightforward there are few issues with conservation. My, you do seem to have something against corporations. Did you have a nasty white-collar experience?

 

[Chrissi]

I will refrain from stating the obvious at this point...  but will point out that many large companies provide free gym membership, many have their own gyms and London office workers are encouraged to run during lunch breaks (you can see them any day on the Embankment) so there are probably far more slim, fit office workers than fat cave leaders? 

I presume this discussion's closed from the level of your last comment.

 

[cap n chris]

there are probably far more slim, fit office workers than fat cave leaders? 

True. Because there are so many office workers and so few cave leaders (few, if any, of whom are fat). Mind you, I've NEVER seen a cave leader anywhere near as overweight as people who (in significant percentages, note) work in offices.

 

[ttxela]

Completely off topic but a year ago I worked for a year for the first time in a completely office/car based job, my level of activity outside work remained pretty constant and I think I'm reasonably fit - just being in that office seemed to make me put on weight which I am still struggling to get rid of.

Maybe it's the fault of the tea lady coming round with cakes every day at 11:00.......

 

[paul]

there are probably far more slim, fit office workers than fat cave leaders? 

True. Because there are so many office workers and so few cave leaders (few, if any, of whom are fat). Mind you, I've NEVER seen a cave leader anywhere near as overweight as people who (in significant percentages, note) work in offices.

And I've never heard such a sweeping generalisation!

 

[whitelackington]

Lard arses :ang:

 

[andymorgan]

Don't we all 'profit' from caving and caves? We do caving for our own personal gratification: we have no real need to be in caves. Therefore as recreation cavers we can't take any moral high ground against those who get paid professionally or do it for charity.
:kiss2: