Caving for Charity or Profit

[Peter Burgess]

OK

I've been away, and reading through this thread, I have been surprised at how it developed. I haven't really stated where I stand here, but here goes:

I could go into much more detail, but the basic underlying principle is clear. The reason for doing any caving trip should be the cave first last and foremost. If there is another motive then no matter how laudable that motive might be the trip is putting unnecessary pressure on the cave environment and an alternative should be sought.

Taken to its logical conclusion, none of us should ever go caving again. We enter a cave to benefit ourselves, whether by enhancing our knowledge of it, by enjoying the sport, or  in addition to these, by earning a living. The cave benefits not at all. We introduce micro-organisms that shouldn't be there, we change the humidity, we bring in foreign materials on our boots and oversuits. We disturb wildlife that lives there, and we modify the shape and extent of the cave by digging out new passages and excavating for archaeological remains, and our reason for being there is not especially relevant, as far as our effect on thew cave is concerned.

The cave, the subject of this disturbance, is not an animate object. It does not think "Oh, he's only taking photographs for his own pleasure, so that's OK", or conversely "How dare that caver come into my chambers just so he can earn a living".

So my angle is REGARDLESS of your motive for going caving, enjoy it, disturb the cave as little as you can, and worry not about people who think that earning money or raising funds should be frowned upon.

It also crossed my mind what some people might think about caving clubs obtaining charitable status, and thereby becoming charities themselves.

 

[Peter Burgess]

In the end there are just two types of caving - good and bad - and that is the reality we really need to confront.

Precisely right, Andy. Just as there are two kinds of websites - badly written ones, and well-written ones. Amateurs can do some pretty 'professional-looking' stuff, and on the opposite side of the coin, the professionals can put together some real dogs' dinners. It's not the motivation to do something that is the issue, it is how the plan is executed.

 

[graham]

Ho ho. I can speak as the Treasurer of a club which is a charity, by dint of our close connection with the University. We take this position seriously and regard ourselves as having a duty towards education which we discharge through, amongst other things, the production of a serious peer-reviewed journal and, increasingly, by the provision of information on our website.  :halo:

Now, you are wrong to say that

Taken to its logical conclusion, none of us should ever go caving again.

Were that to be the case then there is no doubt that caves would suffer far more through human activity than they do now. There would be far less reason to conserve and protect them from such threats as water pollution and quarrying.  

In order to protect this fragile environment we need to understand it. We cannot understand it unless we visit it. Amongst other things we now understand that, owing to the variation in energy inputs both natural and man-made, some parts of some caves are more robust than others. For a long time I have argued that the best introduction to caves from the caves' point of view is to take novices in the OFD 1 streamway in flood. For some reason this never seems to go down well.  :-\

 

[Cave_Troll]

As my mother said when I was younger 'if so and so tells you to jump off a cliff would you do it?'

It depends. If that person has set up a safety system that he can either demonstrate will work, or i trust his professional abilities to know that it will work, then yes i might

 

[Peter Burgess]

In order to protect this fragile environment we need to understand it. We cannot understand it unless we visit it. Amongst other things we now understand that, owing to the variation in energy inputs both natural and man-made, some parts of some caves are more robust than others.

So, if cavers visiting a cave do so with the same regard for the cave as the research scientist, then you don't have a problem?

Sadly, I suspect you will find that the vast majority of cavers do not work on this highest of planes.

You are allowed to explore this cave, but remember! You are not here to enjoy yourself. You are here to LEARN!!

 

[Cave_Troll]

don't touch ANYTHING and wear a tyvek suit and face mask
and certaily don't put in any bolts

 

[graham]

No reason why you cannoy enjoy yourself and learn at the same time.

As for the research scientist, he has to behave himself too. I remember a few years ago when one of them was obliged to take a member of a caving club underground, explain his research objectives and methodology in detail and undertake to furnish them with a report within a reasonable timescale before he was allowed to do the work.

And that is how it should be.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Am I allowed to enjoy myself, without learning anything please?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Ho ho. I can speak as the Treasurer of a club which is a charity

Ah, so!

If somebody undertook some activity in a cave (or anywhere else, I suppose) to financially benefit Graham's caving group, and presented him with the money, he would be obliged to either resign his post as treasurer, or refuse to accept the money, on the grounds that accepting the money went against his principles.

Does anyone ever offer a donation to the group as a 'thank you' for services rendered in connection with caving activities?

You have the right to remain silent on the grounds that I am poking my nose into something that doesn't really concern me.

 

[fi]

there are probably far more slim, fit office workers than fat cave leaders? 

True. Because there are so many office workers and so few cave leaders (few, if any, of whom are fat). Mind you, I've NEVER seen a cave leader anywhere near as overweight as people who (in significant percentages, note) work in offices.

I'm certain I've met the illustrious cap'n (if not I apologise for any slur implied) but from my memory I recall he's almost as round as he is tall???

 

[cap n chris]

That was then, this is now. 4 stones gone and counting....

 

[cap n chris]

As my mother said when I was younger 'if so and so tells you to jump off a cliff would you do it?'

It depends. If that person has set up a safety system that he can either demonstrate will work, or i trust his professional abilities to know that it will work, then yes i might

I probably would too.

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/deadly_bungee_jump_in_brazil_Jul_05_2005.html

 

[Peter Burgess]

That was then, this is now. 4 stones gone and counting....

After he went to see his G.P.

Conversation roughly as follows.....

CC: Well, doctor, what's the verdict?

GP: I can pronounce you 100 percent fat.

CC: Don't you mean 'fit'?

GP. No, I meant what I said the first time.

 

[fi]

That was then, this is now. 4 stones gone and counting....

Wow!  Well done Chris!!! 

(Presume you weren't sponsored for doing this?)

 

[Peter Burgess]

You can always tell when a good topic has run its course. It usually descends into personal comments and abuse, followed by general frivolity and silliness. That's what I like about this forum.

 

[cap n chris]

Fi = :hug:
Peter =  :spank:

 

[Peter Burgess]

It's a good job, for your own sake, that you didn't get the smileys round the wrong way.

 

[fi]