Caving Helmets

mikem

Well-known member
Early plastic helmets were massively affected by UV (you can usually check this by comparing colour of interior to exterior), hence the original 5 year recommendation. Modern helmets use much better stabilisers & are better designed, so 10 years has become the average, but this is solely based on what the manufacturer is prepared to take liability for & what the opposition are offering (to make more sales).

Of course UV isn't as much of an issue for caving as it is for climbing (unless you leave it outside to dry). If you don't dry it properly then the straps will degrade. So, how the helmets are looked after is much more important than any shelf life - stuffing it in the bottom of your tub with heavy / wet kit on top will shorten it's period of usefulness!

We've destroyed numerous helmets with a sledge hammer over the years & no matter what age or state they were in (short of already being cracked), they all took more force to destroy than your head would if inside them.

As long as you have a sensible inspection & retirement system, that is being followed and keep a record of each individual helmet, you don't need to worry about one failing in use. However, if you have multiple groups using them, so can't be quite sure that all take as much care as yourselves, then I would definitely stick to recommended life.

(Of course, there are now "single use" designs available, that are designed to break & absorb the impact - these aren't really suitable for caving or mountaineering use, as you're not likely to be carrying a spare).
 

phizz4

Member
quite glad scouting doesn't operate under AALS

We would welcome any advice re AALA regulations that would help us to improve the safe operation of our activities. What are you suggesting?
 

JoshW

Well-known member
I think I?ll always stick with the ?helmets are cheap, lawsuits aren?t? mantra. Can always flog on helmets to others reducing the actual expenditures..
 

mikem

Well-known member
You're probably opening yourself up to more risk of lawsuits by selling the helmets on!

Remember risk assessment is about not only the level of danger, but also the probability...
 

Fulk

Well-known member
The message that I'm picking up here is that it's a bad idea to use helmets beyond their 'use-by date' . . . but it's perfectly acceptable to flog them on to other people to use; or have I misunderstood something?
 

mikem

Well-known member
The difference is, it's perfectly acceptable to take that decision about your own safety, but not about the safety of others under your care.

A helmet does not suddenly deteriorate at a certain date, but can become unsafe well before, or if looked after, can last well beyond that time.
 

JoshW

Well-known member
Fulk said:
The message that I'm picking up here is that it's a bad idea to use helmets beyond their 'use-by date' . . . but it's perfectly acceptable to flog them on to other people to use; or have I misunderstood something?

As individuals caving, you need to be able to risk assess your own kit. As long as you are flogging them stating they are over ten years old etc, or not hiding the fact they?re over ten years then that?s fair. If you?re providing helmets in a commercial (or commercial-esque) sense, then you yourself need to make a risk assessment to avoid it.

Personally whilst I think risk of failure is incredibly low, the cost of replacing them is relatively smaller. As someone ?working? under the guidelines and under the insurance of an organisation (the scouts) I?m inclined to follow the rules when I can.

For personal caving balls to it, I?m gonna work on a slightly more flexible risk assessment
 

mikem

Well-known member
14 helmets at ?50 each is still ?70 per year...

HSE (so AALS) advice on using helmets beyond their notional shelf life:
https://www.outdoor-learning.org/Portals/0/IOL%20Documents/AALS%20Log/1999-2000/2000%20Shelf%20life%20of%20kayak%20helmets%20.pdf?ver=2017-06-28-152932-740
Conversely, more thorough testing may be necessary if the manufacturers? recommended life span has been exceeded. However, for many providers ?their equipment is their shop window.? That is, clients and potential clients may make assumptions (albeit unjustified) about the overall level of safety of the provision based on the ?appearance? of the equipment.
 

GT

New member
Bear in mind that relates to a paddlsport (kayak) helmet .

phizz4; in answer to your original question you should seek the advice of the Scouts technical adviser. I'm pretty sure you'll have one appointed, that's certainly the case (as far as I'm aware) for any Scouts in Wales.

That way you'll at least get a single opinion. You can sight some of the comments from this thread but really you need hard evidence to support using helmets past the 10yrs. As a tech adviser myself I'd be expecting some pretty robust measures to be in place if people wanted to use helmets beyond the 10 yr lifespan which would include a good idea of use (i.e. I could see an argument for helmets that have been stored well and only used a few times a year, but if they were out every week then it'd be hard to justify keeping them in use) and a thorough visual and function inspection by someone with a very good idea of what to look out for.

Given the increasing appreciation for plastics and landfill its certainly something I wouldn't dismiss.



mikem said:
14 helmets at ?50 each is still ?70 per year...

HSE (so AALS) advice on using helmets beyond their notional shelf life:
https://www.outdoor-learning.org/Portals/0/IOL%20Documents/AALS%20Log/1999-2000/2000%20Shelf%20life%20of%20kayak%20helmets%20.pdf?ver=2017-06-28-152932-740
Conversely, more thorough testing may be necessary if the manufacturers? recommended life span has been exceeded. However, for many providers ?their equipment is their shop window.? That is, clients and potential clients may make assumptions (albeit unjustified) about the overall level of safety of the provision based on the ?appearance? of the equipment.
 

PaulW

Member
Scout Wales does have a (very good) Technical adviser.

UK TSA made the 'wise' decision to end the role of all its technical advisers, however they would seek professional advice if it was deemed necessary.

However in this case i would like to think they would give the answer to follow manufacturers lifespan guidelines
 

mikem

Well-known member
It also depends exactly how the scouts phrase their recommendation, after all you are operating under their insurance.
 

Hammy

Member
Helmets used in a situation where the provider has responsibility for safety should be able to pass a PPE check, as detailed here

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/News/2019-2-14/How-to-inspect-your-helmet

Unscientific ?testing? on a quiet day at work a few years ago

https://youtu.be/7GkRgHm2GBc

And another quiet day...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bHe56bYPS1NKPYBk6



 

Roger W

Well-known member
What can I say?  Please don't drop one of those rocks on my head, whatever sort of helmet I'm wearing!
 

Hammy

Member
Just to be clear, it?s not very scientific testing, but it does demonstrate the relative integrity of different plastics...
 
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