CCC and others on access to Welsh caves and countryside

[pwhole]

I'm not surprised he's got it - watching the news yesterday, about ten of them all piled through the front door of 10 Downing Street, rubbing shoulders and everything. I was a little surprised, given the contents of the previous few minutes conversations. I know it's difficult - we are a tactile species after all - but if they're not on top of this very obvious stuff, it does make me worry a little. On the upside, my relatively impoverished and generally solo lifestyle is beginning to feel quite luxurious relatively now, but I know it shouldn't. I'll enjoy it while it lasts. And think where to go for my daily walk, as it's due!

 

[Stuart France]

Couple of recent developments:

1) The BBNPA has now revised their list of banned places to go walking. The list has been renumbered with new locations added and a description of the affected area added too, but still no maps.  It looks to me THEY HAVE CLOSED THE ENTIRE NATIONAL PARK above the top fence or wall line, and added a few more car park closures like the Ogof Ffynnon Ddu NNR one where you could previously have enjoyed a 100 metre walk in the middle of nowhere before reaching the aforesaid boundary fence onto the CROW Access Land.

https://www.beacons-npa.gov.uk/coronavirus-covid-19/

2) The Outdoor Alliance representing all outdors sports governing bodies in Wales (including Cambrian) and other interested groups like the Open Spaces Society, has sent a letter of complaint to the Minister today about the dwindling access situation for the public to take air and exercise.  It is expected the text of this letter will soon be published and then it becomes an open letter.  This will likely be done as a press release through one of the most prominent sports bodies.  I will add this and any other news to what is becoming the regular Cambrian website weekly update on Thursday.

It follows hard on the heels of media criticism of Derbyshire Police after informal reports emerged that they had droned pensioners walking their dog, then put photos of walkers online, and dyed a lake black to stop people using it.

 

[Speleotron]

Fair enough but the lake is dyed black fairly frequently as it's actually a heavily contaminated pool of waste water in an old quarry that can do a fair bit of harm.

 

[AR]

The reason for dyeing the blue lagoon at Harpur Hill black is nothing to do with Covid-19 and has been done for several years now. The reason it's dyed is to stop people swimming in water that is leachate from the limekiln tips and is highly alkaline; basically you're swimming in bleach if you're stupid enough to try. Right now, I guess local hospitals could really do without having to deal with  avoidable caustic burns...

 

[Jenny P]

Part of the problem in the Peak District is that large numbers of people actually live so close to open country that they can literally walk out of their own front door and be in "wild country" and on a footpath with no-one anywhere near them.  There should be no need at all to chase these people - what they are doing is perfectly legitimate.  Likewise all the cyclists who live very close to the Tissington and Cromford & High Peak Trails so they can cycle out of their front door and be away on the trails within minutes - and not hanging around anyone else on their way as they'd whizz past in less than a second.

The thing the local police have been objecting to is people driving out to a popular parking spot to go climbing or walking.  So you then have a collection of cars, parked close together, with people from a diverse area all collected together - which is exactly what the authorities are trying to avoid.

It's a difficult call and I think they are trying to do their best. 

You know that the local joke here is, "There's 19 million people living within half an hour's drive of the Peak District National Park - and they're all there on Sunday afternoons.".

 

[Fjell]

Catching the virus wandering around the great outdoors does seem somewhat unlikely, certainly compared to wandering around towns and cities- or, God forbid, public transport and offices.

It?s also now becoming apparent that obesity and lack of fitness are big red flags for older people. Keeping everyone inside for half a year or more is likely to be bad news.

We are doing a 5-10 km hill walk every day. Large number of others are doing the same from the village. Plenty of 70 to 80+ year olds chugging up the hill too.

Unless people intend to stay indoors until a vaccine appears (and when is that?) there is little choice but to accept you might get it at some point. It doesn?t look like the NHS is actually going to collapse, so that?s just how it is. The country cannot survive with locked borders and no-one working for years to come. If we do that, millions will have their lives destroyed - it?s already happening as thousands of companies start to collapse. And that?s before the government even withdraws support, which it will have to do well before a vaccine appears or go broke.

The whole population should be sent on compulsory hill walks.

 

[Fjell]

We have four parents in their 80?s and 90?s. The logic dictates they will be locked up until a vaccine appears. For some or even all of them this will be the rest of their lives.
My mother has already said she will give it a few weeks then she is going to start going about her normal business and damn their eyes. For her it?s just not worth it. She?d rather take a 30% chance of being dead.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

According to the Guardian today:

The briefing to officers, which they will be expected to follow, says: ?The coronavirus act and coronavirus regulations do not explicitly confer any powers on police officers to stop vehicles.?

It says officers can use the road traffic act to stop vehicles for any reason, and this could lead to offences under the coronavirus act being detected.

But then adds: ?Use your judgment and common sense; for example, people will want to exercise locally and may need to travel to do so, we don?t want the public sanctioned for travelling a reasonable distance to exercise. Road checks on every vehicle is equally disproportionate.

 

[darren]

We have four parents in their 80?s and 90?s. The logic dictates they will be locked up until a vaccine appears. For some or even all of them this will be the rest of their lives.
My mother has already said she will give it a few weeks then she is going to start going about her normal business and damn their eyes. For her it?s just not worth it. She?d rather take a 30% chance of being dead.

And possibly kill several others in he process

 

[Fjell]

Better dead than duffers was always her motto.

I was once left sitting in the car when she popped into a souk in Iran to pick up some nan. She had forgotten she was wearing micro shorts and a bikini top and got arrested for lewdness. She was taken to the police station where she invited the chief of police to dinner, and who sent her home in his car. I got home somewhat later.

 

[Stuart France]

The Ramblers website, and others with outdoors interests, have published the joint open letter to the minister setting out the concerns of 16 member organisations of the Outdoor Alliance about the "inconsistent wholesale closure of open spaces and footpaths" forcing people to take exercise indoors or in more confined areas that risks enhanced virus transmission, vigilantism, stigmatism, and other unintended unwanted outcomes.  For example:

https://www.ramblers.org.uk/en/news/latest-news/2020/march/outdoor-alliance-wales-paths-and-outdoor-access-closure.aspx

https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2020/03/31/groups-warn-welsh-government-covid-19-measures-risk-stigmatising-outdoor-fans#

 

[kat]

Whilst discussing the pros and cons of hill walking in the present situation the current limited resources of the mountain rescue teams across the UK available to respond in the event of a call-out should also be considered. 

Thanks

Kat Hawkins
NWCRO Secretary

 

[Fjell]

Maybe it would just be simpler to announce there is no mountain rescue and it?s on you.

Not having rescue cover is a ridiculous reason to say people can?t walk up any hill in England or Wales. In Scotland you take your own chances.

 

[mikem]

Glencoe might disagree...

 

[Mark Wright]

There are so many selfish plonkers out there who just don't get it.

Mind you, it does appear to be a family trait in this case.

 

[Speleofish]

Some of the UK's ICUs are swamped, most of the rest are fuller than usual. We don't know what's going to happen next. Admissions are ramping up.Looking after Covid patients on ICU is time-consuming and very difficult. It's made even harder because relatives can no longer visit except for a limited number to say goodbye (once) to a dying patient.

Usually we have 24 beds available for all comers. Currently we have filled 32 beds, have another 120 places to put patients (not the same as ICU beds but they might do) and might able to stretch to 150. After that, we're stuffed (and, more importantly, so are you). Best case prediction, we need just over 150 beds. Worst case, nearly 300 (for our catchment area). This ignores the likelihood that neighbouring, smaller hospitals will run out of capacity and send their excess patients to us (rather likely).
Long before we reach 'capacity' we run out of staff, so supervision will be cursory.

I've said this in a previous post, but it bears repeating. We are beyond what we would normally consider our safe limits, and will have to stretch further in the next few weeks. However you take your daily, permitted exercise, please don't do anything that runs the risk that you'll need us. ...

 

[Fjell]

The health benefits of everyone getting out for exercise will vastly outweigh a couple of brief hospital visits from people falling over you would think.

This could be going on for years, so best to plan for it.

 

[Tripod]

What are people missing about this? Crowds in the Peak District on the first sunny weekend of the year,  with people making a fuss because the pubs were shut. Farmers are having a lot of trouble across the country with large numbers of people, who appear to have never walked anywhere before, wandering over their land, not staying on the foot paths and some not keeping their dogs under control. Emergency hospitals have been built and yesterday I was told that a hospital near me has been turned over to treat just Corvid virus patients, with staff accommodated in a nearby Travel Lodge. Cancer treatments and tests have been stopped. How stupid can people be? You go out, you might breakdown or have an accident, you go into the countryside and infect gates and styles, or get infected from them, you meet other people - same story. You could place demands on the emergency services, take up a hospital bed or infect others and take up many beds. What is so hard to understand?

 

[Fjell]

I spent my career doing HSE risk assessment. This disease is killing people with heart conditions, diabetes and apparently just obesity. Keeping 65 million people indoors for the rest of this year will kill a lot more people than those who fall over.
I live in the Park and see none of the behaviour you describe. People are behaving perfectly sensibly so stop panicking. Even the kids are having elaborate discussions on social distancing.

 

[mikem]

Latest reports suggest 1/3rd of ICU beds are currently occupied by people with covid-19 & it is going to get worse - but fjell is right, if it continues long term, a lot more than that are going to have their lives shortened due to other factors related to the lockdown...

It's sensible to shut the honeypot footpaths, but blanket closing areas is not the answer - someone I know of in France is restricted to their village, where they are far more likely to run into people, or hurt themselves on the many staircases, than they would be on the low level footpaths in the surrounding countryside.