Conservation and consequences of CRoW access applied to caving.

[blackholesun]

Er, I'd hazard a guess that conservation would go out of the window if CRoW access applied to caving. In fact I believe/think/know that it would be a certainty. For sure. Deffo.

Chris, to me this implies that the permit system provides some sort of protective function over caves. Could you tell me the mechanism behind this?

 

[graham]

In short, I think that CRoW becoming a reality for cavers would cause us to sit down and take a look at the whole issue through eveyones eyes.

Actually, no, it wouldn't because we, as cavers, as members of the public, would have absolutely no influence over what then happened when people went down those caves.

 

[cap n chris]

Chris, to me this implies that the permit system provides some sort of protective function over caves. Could you tell me the mechanism behind this?

I don't see how a permit system provides protection; a conservation warden/leadership system does, though.

 

[Ian Adams]

In short, I think that CRoW becoming a reality for cavers would cause us to sit down and take a look at the whole issue through eveyones eyes.

Actually, no, it wouldn't because we, as cavers, as members of the public, would have absolutely no influence over what then happened when people went down those caves.

Did you miss this ....

What I would like (expect?) to see, were CRoW to become a reality for cavers is a sensible discussion how we (as cavers) apply it.

Ian

 

[graham]

In short, I think that CRoW becoming a reality for cavers would cause us to sit down and take a look at the whole issue through eveyones eyes.

Actually, no, it wouldn't because we, as cavers, as members of the public, would have absolutely no influence over what then happened when people went down those caves.

Did you miss this ....

What I would like (expect?) to see, were CRoW to become a reality for cavers is a sensible discussion how we (as cavers) apply it.

Ian

Nope, didn't miss that. It'd be about as effective as discussing the weather 'cos there would be nothing we could do about what then went on in those caves.

Except to attempt to repair the damage afterwards.

 

[droid]

The optimist in me wants to believe what Ian clearly believes: that there will be a discussion between cavers on which caves need conservation measures....however the realist in me is inclined to follow Graham.

The point was made earlier - several times - that 'non-club' cavers had limited access to some caves. If CRoW includes caving, they will have access. How are they to join the debate?

Not all of them will be on here.

 

[Stu]

Chris, you're right that a permit system doesn't confer protection for a cave. Leader systems may. What do we with that? For the sake of conserving caves must every cave have a leader/warden system? Or could we conclude on a case by case study some caves leader led and the rest open access in a broader sense? We agree permits don't work so we seem to have the beginnings of a system here.

 

[Peter Burgess]

It's like protection of architecture. You can't protect everything - but you have to make a pragmatic selection and identify what is important to protect, what is possibly unique, what are the best examples of a particular kind of vulnerable cave.

In the real world, we lose nice buildings, and archaeological features (once properly studied and recorded) as the price we pay to keep society going, but protect and conserve those elements of our past which we treasure most.

 

[Ian Adams]

The optimist in me wants to believe what Ian clearly believes: that there will be a discussion between cavers on which caves need conservation measures....however the realist in me is inclined to follow Graham.

So ... maybe the ?actuality? will lay somewhere between ?  (We can probably all agree on that at least that?)

The point was made earlier - several times - that 'non-club' cavers had limited access to some caves. If CRoW includes caving, they will have access. How are they to join the debate?

Not all of them will be on here.

That is a very good point. We have to start somewhere and there will always be people who are not members of clubs and who ?venture? wherever they want regardless of the law, rules, regulations, wishes etc. For the most part, we (the cavers here at least) can begin a process that could be filtered through to our own respective clubs or regional bodies and/or even up to the BCA.

From little acorns .... ?

Ian

 

[Andyj23UK]

Er, I'd hazard a guess that conservation would go out of the window if CRoW access applied to caving. In fact I believe/think/know that it would be a certainty. For sure. Deffo.

UTTER TWADDLE !!!!!!

the only thing that will protect any cave is a bomb-proof gate and leader / warden led trips

please tell us how many caves entrances on CROW land have an inpentatrable gate and a guide only access procedure ?

because thats how many caves will be damaged by CROW access - all others can already be pirated

 

[cap n chris]

the only thing that will protect any cave is a bomb-proof gate and leader / warden led trips

:read: Gets my vote but you might find it's not the most popular suggestion ever.

please tell us how many caves entrances on CROW land have an inpentatrable gate and a guide only access procedure ?

No idea. I don't even know where all the CRoW land is, let alone which bits have caves on. I didn't realise I was expected to have this sort of information available in order to post a reasonable comment from my own POV. I do know of one in my ownership, though.

because thats how many caves will be damaged by CROW access - all others can already be pirated

Indeed; you're confirming what I stated i.e. CRoW access will result in damage. For sure. Isn't that utter twaddle, though?

 

[Andyj23UK]

Indeed; you're confirming what I stated i.e. CRoW access will result in damage. For sure. Isn't that utter twaddle, though?

no - CROW access will only damage caves that currenlty have impregnable gates and leader only trips

how hard is that to understand ????????????

CROW access will not " create " a legion of cavers who head underground because the access has changed

EVERYTHING else can already be accessed by pirates , fuckwits and others

CNCC permits and other schemes offer zero protection - because the only people that obey the CNCC scheme are responsible cavers

 

[cap n chris]

no - CROW access will only damage caves that currenlty have impregnable gates and leader only trips

how hard is that to understand ????????????

It's not hard to understand at all - I fully agree with you; it confirms my earlier point that CRoW access will result in damage.

CROW access will not " create " a legion of cavers who head underground because the access has changed

Perhaps not but I know/think/believe it will definitely result in a significant increase in caver traffic to sites to which they already have access but for which they need to engage in prior planning.

 

[graham]

Perhaps not but I know/think/believe it will definitely result in a significant increase in caver traffic to sites to which they already have access but for which they need to engage in prior planning.

Sure, there is a school of thought that states that (many) cavers are idle sods who won't put themselves out to gain access to many of our more obscure caves. Anything that takes a bit of planning or effort to organise, they can't be arsed.

 

[cap n chris]

Has anyone told you how marvellous you are, recently?

 

[graham]

Has anyone told you how marvellous you are, recently?

Funnily enough, yes. 

 

[danthecavingman]

It is about our rights as UK citizens under UK law, to exercise our right to 'Open-air Recreation' on access land, as defined by the CRoW Act.

My personal slant on this is as follows:
I am no longer a club member (btw I was a club caver for over 20 years). I cave very infrequently and do not want to be a part of the club scene anymore. I don't want caving insurance. I don't want to have to jump through all those hoops to get a permit to go caving in some of the finest caves in Britain.  What I want to do is to be able to turn up, for example, at Bull Pot Farm, with a couple of mates, get changed, walk across the fell and go caving. Simple as that.

To put it into perspective, try and imagine having to join a Walking Club, pay a subscription, pay for insurance etc, simply to be allowed to walk up your local hill....

"I fancy going for a walk up Mam Tor this afternoon...", "Sharp intake of breath, sucking through teeth... well, are you in a club?", "No, do you need to be in one?", "Well there's insurance for a start, you'll need that. And only recognised clubs can get a permit for Mam Tor. You'll need to get written permission six weeks in advance. Oh, and you can't go on Wednesdays. Or Fridays."

I fully subscribe to the fact that the situation for caving on Private or non-CRoW land is entirely different and if I wish to cave in those circumstances then Club membership, insurance, permits, keys or whatever may be a pre-requisite. I will not be caving in those areas.

Dan.

Just restating my stance.

Perhaps not but I know/think/believe it will definitely result in a significant increase in caver traffic to sites to which they already have access but for which they need to engage in prior planning.

Sure, there is a school of thought that states that (many) cavers are idle sods who won't put themselves out to gain access to many of our more obscure caves. Anything that takes a bit of planning or effort to organise, they can't be arsed.

The problem for some is that 'a bit of planning or effort to organise' means applying for membership of a caving club, going through probationary membership, being accepted as a member, paying for a club subscription and insurance, then having to apply for a permit, on a set date  etc., etc., etc.....

When all of those hoops are not necessarily required.

Increased access via CRoW will not mean the great unwashed masses hurling themselves recklessly down caves and pot-holes willy-nilly, smashing formations for their mantelpiece and trampling sediments into oblivion. If they wanted to do that, as someone has already pointed out, they would simply pirate the caves anyway. It is about access for bona-fide cavers who don't want to jump through unneccessary hoops.
If there are legitimate conservation concerns, then in conjunction with NE, the Landowner could restrict access to caves felt to be vulnerable. There is legal recourse to do this.

Can I bring a case to point here - the fantastic formations in Giant's Hole upstream from Base Camp Chamber, in a very remote and not easily accessible location, were smashed to pieces out of sheer malice. Whoever did it knew exactly where they were going and what they were doing. Why? Only 1 person knows the answer to this and I doubt they'll pipe up anytime soon and say why they did it.

Did they have permission to go down Giants? If they had been given permission, it didn't stop the damage. Personal responsibility and due care for the environment around you is what cave conservation is about. The rogue element who don't give a shit will do their thing regardless of CRoW, SSSIs, whatever...

The best one can hope for if access via CRoW is allowed is that like most cavers, we will be duely dilligent in our efforts to protect the caves that we find ourselves with better access to.

Dan.

 

[dunc]

Random witterings of an inebriated caver;

CRoW access will only result in more damage if a currently gated (and more likely leader-led) cave was to become a free-for-all. Removal of the permit system (or asking at a farm) will make absolutely no difference whatsoever, there always has been and always will be pirates and those that ignore the system, so there will be no real change for those caves.

There was a time when I thought open access was a good idea, these days I realise, in certain situations, extra protection is probably required because there are some clumsy twats about.

Using conservation as a means to try to derail any change on access is narrow-minded without proper investigation, as has been admitted above by one person, does anyone really know which caves would be affected by any such change? Does anyone really know what gated/leader caves are on CRoW land?

To restrict access, as in gated/leader to all (or the majority of) caves would be the final nail in the coffin for this sport. Would anyone seriously get in to a sport where you had to apply and wait for a leader to become available? I doubt it.

Sure, there is a school of thought that states that (many) cavers are idle sods who won't put themselves out to gain access to many of our more obscure caves. Anything that takes a bit of planning or effort to organise, they can't be arsed.

And yet again another sweeping statement from Graham about cavers in this country, do you have a slot on grumpy old men?
Maybe people do try to organise trips but the availability of leaders is the real problem. I think it took a fair number of years to organise a trip to DYO, it was almost a yearly farce trying to find a leader and on the odd occasion we did get one, you guessed it, the weather had other ideas! Faced with a system of it's not what you know it's who you know, it's easy to understand why "people can't be arsed", sometimes.


On a lighter note, I think a reasonable number of cavers are more conservation aware now than previously.

 

[blackholesun]

There may well be an increase of cavers to caves that previously required hoop jumping if said jumping is removed. However, as this is unlikely to reach the general public, it is unlikely that more caving trips in total will be had.

If there is no increase of trips, then any increase in the rate of wear in one cave will have a corresponding decrease rate of wear on another cave.

 

[blackholesun]

As perhaps an aside, would anyone be interested in compiling a list of caves or routes that don't have fragile formations in? If people were looking for trips to do, then such a list may provide some suggestions for those thinking of conservation, or those taking beginners.

E.g. Oh, the weather is fine today, perhaps I'll go down Black Shiver instead of muddying Maracaibo again.