Conservation and consequences of CRoW access applied to caving.

[droid]

You sitting down Newstuff?

I can see the point you're making. But it's a local issue and needs dealing with locally. Can't the Cambrian Caving Council mediate?

Or have things got to the stage of open hostility?

 

[Jenny P]

Re. the question of whether a permit system is helpful in conservation issues, consider the following:

Giants Hole:  delicate formations out of the normal through route deliberately smashed and large sections of the broken formations removed from the cave (collected for sale?).  Access control:  the landowner insists that an access fee be paid by anyone who goes down.

Swildons Hole:  Barnes Loop, when I first saw it in 1960 was magnificent but since then it's been battered almost beyond all recognition.  Access Control:  the landowner insists that an access fee be paid by anyone who goes down.

Ease Gill:  Easter Grotto had gradually been spoilt over the years and now has broken formations and people have left, at various times, sweet papers, flashbulbs and the like.  Access Control:  permit from CNCC - no payment required.

OFD II:  Trident:  despite the area below it being taped off, the tip of the formation has been broken off and has had to be stuck back on.  Access Control:  permit required and also limit on party size.

OFD I:  The Antlers:  a number of years ago now the delicate helictite formations high up on the wall of a passage were broken off completely:  Access Control:  permit and (until very recently) leadership system and limited number in the party.

Water Icicle Extensions:  No damage to the delicate floor deposits and all visitors keep to the taped route.  Access Control:  New passage gated and a leadership system, restricted dates and limited number of visitors agreed between DCA, the club and Natural England.

So you can see that a permit system doesn't necessarily protect the cave, though it may have some effect on visitor numbers.  Ultimately, one careless person can start the process of deterioration; one person intent on doing deliberate damage and/or stealing formation for their own ends can irretrievably damage an area.

As someone said earlier:  EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION is an essential part of the process. 

However, if necessary, couple that with the very occasional set of very specific restrictions if it is absolutely essential to protect something of unique value.  But be very sure you before you go down this route that you have the full understanding and agreement of the local cavers since you will be relying on them to help you protect the cave.

Both DCA and CNCC have a great record of working with Natural England in monitoring caves and both have their own cave monitoring websites so everyone can see what is going on.  A statutory duty of EN is to monitor SSSIs in their care and they rely on the local cavers do this work for them.  This puts responsible cavers, working within the club/regional council/BCA system in a good light with EN - surely a plus if we engage in sensible debate with them about widening the CRoW definition to ensure that it includes cavers.

 

[cap n chris]

Both DCA and CNCC have a great record of working with Natural England in monitoring caves

ditto CSCC

 

[Brains]

To clarify, are you saying the antlers were damaged during the leadership system phase? 

 

[NigR]

Brains,

Jenny says "a number of years ago" so if this is the case it must have happened when the leadership system was still in place. I was an OFD1 leader from the mid-1980s onwards and cannot remember this happening in my time but I could be wrong.

Don't forget you could always get to OFD1 without a leader if you were keen enough. My first recce trips (whilst still at Uni) were via Cwmdwr as was my first "unofficial" through trip. We were careful where we went but not everyone who ventured there unsupervised might have been. (Although the description "high up on the wall" suggests the damage could have been deliberate?).

 

[Rhys]

Regarding damage in OFDI. I'm wondering if Jenny is referreing to "The Fingers" in Lowe's Passage. Some of these were destroyed way back, possibly in the 1960s. I don't know when the leader system or gate was introduced.

There is a picture of the undamaged formations on page 181 of Limestones and Caves of Wales.

Rhys

 

[Jenny P]

Both DCA and CNCC have a great record of working with Natural England in monitoring caves

ditto CSCC

Agreed, I should have mentioned this - sorry but I don't have direct knowledge of the CSCC system, only of the ones run by DCA and CNCC.

Regarding damage in OFDI. I'm wondering if Jenny is referreing to "The Fingers" in Lowe's Passage. Some of these were destroyed way back, possibly in the 1960s. I don't know when the leader system or gate was introduced.

There is a picture of the undamaged formations on page 181 of Limestones and Caves of Wales.

I have no idea when the damage was done but I was first introduced to OFD I in the late 1960s or early 1970s and the leader system and gate were in place then because we had to go through the garden of the Grythyg.  I was shown on this first trip the remains of the formations high up on the wall of the passage (probably Lowe's because we came down the chain into the streamway) and told about the damage which had been done, breaking off the best of the helictites.  My guide told me how incensed everyone had been because the formations were high on the wall and out of reach normally.  (I remembered them as being referred to as 'antlers' because of their appearance in the picture, which I also know - however, I may be mis-remembering.)

 

[Jopo]

The first reference to a gate and leader system appears in SWCC NL No 10 1954. I don't know when it was introduced or why - need to look at the mins for that.
I recall Peter Harvey telling me that the Fingers and a column quite near the entrance had been damaged when the gate had been left open but I cannot remember if he mentioned a date - again the mins might help. Unlikely that casual got to Lowes Passage.
What is quite surprising is how often there is the mention of litter, carbide and vandalism (arrows and such) in the early SWCC NL (online at SWCC.org) - so not a recent phenomenon.

I have seen a Grithig log of 1956 when cavers were charged 2s 6p each quite a sum then.

Jopo

 

[potholer]

In this area, it couldn't be further from the present situation. I am hoping that CRoW can give a ray of hope, however small, and start a reversal of this, to a situation You describe where it is easy to get somewhere.

So there are various gated natural cave entrances on access land where you are, which are currently nearly impossible to get into 'legitimately'?

As someone else said - that sounds like something you probably should take up with the appropriate body, rather than repeatedly bringing up your support for extra-legal activities.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

In this area, it couldn't be further from the present situation. I am hoping that CRoW can give a ray of hope, however small, and start a reversal of this, to a situation You describe where it is easy to get somewhere.

So there are various gated natural cave entrances on access land where you are, which are currently nearly impossible to get into 'legitimately'?

As someone else said - that sounds like something you probably should take up with the appropriate body, rather than repeatedly bringing up your support for extra-legal activities.

Potholer,

Where would you stand if the "gate" was placed by someone who does not have the right to place it?  Surely reaching for the gas axe in this situation wouldn't be classed as "extra-legal"?

 

[graham]

In this area, it couldn't be further from the present situation. I am hoping that CRoW can give a ray of hope, however small, and start a reversal of this, to a situation You describe where it is easy to get somewhere.

So there are various gated natural cave entrances on access land where you are, which are currently nearly impossible to get into 'legitimately'?

As someone else said - that sounds like something you probably should take up with the appropriate body, rather than repeatedly bringing up your support for extra-legal activities.

Potholer,

Where would you stand if the "gate" was placed by someone who does not have the right to place it?  Surely reaching for the gas axe in this situation wouldn't be classed as "extra-legal"?

That would not give you the right to damage their property. If you were being directly prevented from doing something to which you were legally entitled, then you'd need to get a court injunction directing them to remove it. reaching for the gas axe would remain criminal damage.

Unless the land was actually your property, and even then you'd be wise to take legal advice first.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

That would not give you the right to damage their property. If you were being directly prevented from doing something to which you were legally entitled, then you'd need to get a court injunction directing them to remove it. reaching for the gas axe would remain criminal damage.

Unless the land was actually your property, and even then you'd be wise to take legal advice first.

To be fair, I'm with NewStuff on this one.  I f@*king hate people who think they have more right than me to explore the underworld and I'll even say it here on a public forum:  Unless it was the landownder / someone who is instructed by the land owner or someone else who in some way has a right to restrict access who placed the barrier, I'd be breaking out the tools. 

I get really pissed off by these old timers of the caving world who think us younger cavers don't have the right to see what they've seen!

 

[graham]

I get really pissed off by these old timers of the caving world who think us younger cavers don't have the right to see what they've seen!

Tough, you don't have any rights. Yes I have seen a lot and some of it you never will, but that's not because I had the right to do so, any more than you do, but because I worked bloody hard to earn the privilege.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

I get really pissed off by these old timers of the caving world who think us younger cavers don't have the right to see what they've seen!

Tough, you don't have any rights. Yes I have seen a lot and some of it you never will, but that's not because I had the right to do so, any more than you do, but because I worked bloody hard to earn the privilege.

Please don't preach to me about working hard Graham, to be fair you have no f@cking idea about how hard I work!!!  I have done a hell of a lot of work with regards to local mining heritage for an example.  My entire collection which I bought out of my own money from local ex-miners is currently on permanent loan to a mining museum.  My company has ploughed money into a fund to have a stub head gear reinstated at a former colliery site.  I could go on and on.

You seem to think that you are the only person who cares about heritage & conservation and that all other people don't deserve to see what lies beneath.  You are wrong!!!

 

[graham]

I get really pissed off by these old timers of the caving world who think us younger cavers don't have the right to see what they've seen!

Tough, you don't have any rights. Yes I have seen a lot and some of it you never will, but that's not because I had the right to do so, any more than you do, but because I worked bloody hard to earn the privilege.

Please don't preach to me about working hard Graham, to be fair you have no f@cking idea about how hard I work!!!  I have done a hell of a lot of work with regards to local mining heritage for an example.  My entire collection which I bought out of my own money from local ex-miners is currently on permanent loan to a mining museum.  My company has ploughed money into a fund to have a stub head gear reinstated at a former colliery site.  I could go on and on.

You seem to think that you are the only person who cares about heritage & conservation and that all other people don't deserve to see what lies beneath.  You are wrong!!!

Good for you, maybe you have earned some privileges. You still don't have any rights over other people's property.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

Good for you, maybe you have earned some privileges. You still don't have any rights over other people's property.

If by property you mean a gate placed by someone who has no right to place it (as discussed above) I agree with you from a legal perspective but disagree that I have any less moral right to remove it as the "gater" had to place it in the first place.

 

[graham]

Good for you, maybe you have earned some privileges. You still don't have any rights over other people's property.

If by property you mean a gate placed by someone who has no right to place it (as discussed above) I agree with you from a legal perspective but disagree that I have any less moral right to remove it as the "gater" had to place it in the first place.

So go and talk to the person who does have that right, the landowner. If they are happy with what has been done then they'll tell you to piss off. If they are unhappy, then maybe they'll do something about it and then grant you some access. Maybe they won't. But you have no right, legal or moral, to act outside of their authority.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

So go and talk to the person who does have that right, the landowner. If they are happy with what has been done then they'll tell you to piss off. If they are unhappy, then maybe they'll do something about it and then grant you some access. Maybe they won't. But you have no right, legal or moral, to act outside of their authority.

I Have never mentioned acting out of a landowners authority.  I actually said:

Unless it was the landownder / someone who is instructed by the land owner or someone else who in some way has a right to restrict access who placed the barrier, I'd be breaking out the tools. 

 

[Alex]

Bah we need a popcorn smiley.

 

[graham]

But breaking out the tools would be acting outwith the landowner's authority.

He/she may well have the authority to remove an illicit gate. You do not. How many times do I have to explain this?