danthecavingman said:
It is about our rights as UK citizens under UK law, to exercise our right to 'Open-air Recreation' on access land, as defined by the CRoW Act.
My personal slant on this is as follows:
I am no longer a club member (btw I was a club caver for over 20 years). I cave very infrequently and do not want to be a part of the club scene anymore. I don't want caving insurance. I don't want to have to jump through all those hoops to get a permit to go caving in some of the finest caves in Britain. What I want to do is to be able to turn up, for example, at Bull Pot Farm, with a couple of mates, get changed, walk across the fell and go caving. Simple as that.
To put it into perspective, try and imagine having to join a Walking Club, pay a subscription, pay for insurance etc, simply to be allowed to walk up your local hill....
"I fancy going for a walk up Mam Tor this afternoon...", "Sharp intake of breath, sucking through teeth... well, are you in a club?", "No, do you need to be in one?", "Well there's insurance for a start, you'll need that. And only recognised clubs can get a permit for Mam Tor. You'll need to get written permission six weeks in advance. Oh, and you can't go on Wednesdays. Or Fridays."
I fully subscribe to the fact that the situation for caving on Private or non-CRoW land is entirely different and if I wish to cave in those circumstances then Club membership, insurance, permits, keys or whatever may be a pre-requisite. I will not be caving in those areas.
Dan.
Just restating my stance.
graham said:
Cap'n Chris said:
Perhaps not but I know/think/believe it will definitely result in a significant increase in caver traffic to sites to which they already have access but for which they need to engage in prior planning.
Sure, there is a school of thought that states that (many) cavers are idle sods who won't put themselves out to gain access to many of our more obscure caves. Anything that takes a bit of planning or effort to organise, they can't be arsed.
The problem for some is that 'a bit of planning or effort to organise' means applying for membership of a caving club, going through probationary membership, being accepted as a member, paying for a club subscription and insurance,
then having to apply for a permit, on a set date etc., etc., etc.....
When all of those hoops are not necessarily required.
Increased access via CRoW will not mean the great unwashed masses hurling themselves recklessly down caves and pot-holes willy-nilly, smashing formations for their mantelpiece and trampling sediments into oblivion. If they wanted to do that, as someone has already pointed out, they would simply pirate the caves anyway. It is about access for bona-fide cavers who don't want to jump through unneccessary hoops.
If there are legitimate conservation concerns, then in conjunction with NE, the Landowner could restrict access to caves felt to be vulnerable. There is legal recourse to do this.
Can I bring a case to point here - the fantastic formations in Giant's Hole upstream from Base Camp Chamber, in a very remote and not easily accessible location, were smashed to pieces out of sheer malice. Whoever did it knew exactly where they were going and what they were doing. Why? Only 1 person knows the answer to this and I doubt they'll pipe up anytime soon and say why they did it.
Did they have permission to go down Giants? If they had been given permission, it didn't stop the damage. Personal responsibility and due care for the environment around you is what cave conservation is about. The rogue element who don't give a shit will do their thing regardless of CRoW, SSSIs, whatever...
The best one can hope for if access via CRoW is allowed is that like most cavers, we will be duely dilligent in our efforts to protect the caves that we find ourselves with better access to.
Dan.