Conservation and consequences of CRoW access applied to caving.

[NewStuff]

If someone has an attitude problem in their relationships with others, which manifests itself as ad hominem attacks and belittling comments, then the only person who can possibly do anything about it is the person with the attitude problem. There are one or two prime examples of people with "attitude" in this debate. Sort out your attitude, then sort out the access problem.

Waitafuckingminute... I have an attitude problem? I can't see your post aimed at anyone else (At least grow a set and call me out directly).

I accept that in some cases, gates are needed, that conservation does need to be considered in the big scheme of things and that every cave is different, I try to see both sides, yet I have the problem? Not somebody that plain refuses to see the other side, admit there is a problem or, god forbid, actually try and sort the problem out?

Graham - The symptom's are lock's and gates being removed, but the underlying illness is that people have a big enough problem with the access, to wherever these actions happen, to do this. Does that not tell you there is a bloody issue that is causing divisions throughout the whole exploration community, as evidenced by the very existence of this and other closely related threads?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I threw the hat into the ring. YOU chose to pick it up and wear it. You didn't have to, matey...... I try to be objective in my views, which I choose not to share here. I am involved in looking after access to a few sites, and know the kind of thing that is being discussed. I have sympathy with the issues you raise, but also understand completely where those who you vilify are coming from. An incredible amount of patience is being displayed towards people with attitude which may or may not include you - I leave that for everyone here to decide for themselves.

 

[graham]

Oh dear twisting the topic again - the lock being changed prevents permissive access. It then becomes a problem. For everyone.

Yeah, and I could make every locked cave a problem for everyone with one tube of superglue. Don't accuse me of twisting logic. There is a least one 'person' out there who wishes to screw the, normally straightforward, access to Draenen for everyone in order to follow some demented agenda of their own. I have a good idea of what their agenda is, but refuse to discuss it on here, as the whining from certain quarters then really does get on my tits.

They have stolen locks. They are thieves. It is as simple as that. I do not negotiate with criminals.

 

[Brains]

TOPIC not LOGIC, and with bolt croppers I could solve a lot of gate issues as well...

So how about moving the debate forward with those that want to play within the rules, rather than throwing brickbats and spanners? No one is asking you to deal with anybody that doesnt to play within the rules, just look at the rules and the implication and implementation there of, and MOVE FORWARD

 

[droid]

NewStuff: a few opinionated individuals (and I include myself in that  ) do not make 'divisions within the entire exploration community'

And Graham's right. You don't negotiate with criminals.

Brains: we can look at 'rules and the implementation there of (sic)' all 'we' like. This forum doesn't make the rules, it doesn't implement them. Talk to the people/organisations causing the problems

 

[NewStuff]

I threw the hat into the ring. YOU chose to pick it up and wear it. You didn't have to, matey......

Nope, you pretty much threw the hat at my feet and pointed to me, even someone with a sub-par IQ can figure that out. I have said repeatedly that I have an issue with the outright denial of access without a good reason. I have an issue with empire building, and I think *every* caver or mine explorer should have an issue with that and vilify those facilitating it. I think most already do. I simply want to make access easier for *everyone*, and I'm finding people that see this as a bad thing, and are reacting in so negative a manner, you would think I had just pissed in their cuppa.

They have stolen locks. They are thieves. It is as simple as that. I do not negotiate with criminals.

Are you under the illusion You're a hostage negotiator or  government official?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I haven't seen so much distorted logic to laugh at since the most recent outburst from Pyongyang.

 

[Brains]

This forum doesn't make the rules, it doesn't implement them.

No point trying to have a debate then!
TTFN

 

[NewStuff]

I haven't seen so much distorted logic to laugh at since the most recent outburst from Pyongyang.

Well, pray then, o' being of higher planes of thinking, how does my humble logic not stack up? Do impart thy wisdom upon us mere mortals so we can repent in the error of our ways...  :

 

[graham]

Are you under the illusion You're a hostage negotiator or  government official?

Neither, but I tend to be agreeing with Peter that that there is little left on this thread worth discussing.

 

[Peter Burgess]

When I see some point in contributing to the discussion, I might. So far, I can see no sign of any constructive outcome resulting.  BTW, it's time you let someone else wear that hat. 

 

[graham]

TOPIC not LOGIC, and with bolt croppers I could solve a lot of gate issues as well...

Solve? I suggest you read this.

 

[Ian Adams]

I have to say I thought it was amusing that the "Criminal Damage Act" has been graffited on 

 

[NewStuff]

TOPIC not LOGIC, and with bolt croppers I could solve a lot of gate issues as well...

Solve? I suggest you read this.

I suspect everyone is well aware that removing locks and gates are considered a criminal act should they get caught, especially after your numerous postings about it.

It would however, irrespective of legality, solve a shitload of problems if applied en-masse. It does not, however, make it right. Despite your contrary stance that there is little to no problem, that is what some of us are trying to do. The right thing, for the majority of people.

 

[droid]

And not the right thing. For themselves?

It wouldn't solve anything. It would simply provoke a reaction. That reaction would be better gates. Better locks. Permanent closure by a landowner/tenant entirely pissed off with cavers.

Graham isn't the problem.
Peter isn't the problem.

The people stealing locks, putting in unneccessary gates, removing gates illegally, they are the problem. Speak to them.

 

[graham]

I suspect everyone is well aware that removing locks and gates are considered a criminal act should they get caught, especially after your numerous postings about it.

So why the continual mentions of gas axes or bolt croppers? Bit pointless, don't you think. Unless they are just meant to irritate.

It would however, irrespective of legality, solve a shitload of problems if applied en-masse. It does not, however, make it right. Despite your contrary stance that there is little to no problem, that is what some of us are trying to do. The right thing, for the majority of people.

Bollocks. Law breaking won't solve problems, especially as there are actually far fewer real problems than you claim. There may well be some problems in some areas that annoy some people, but it does seem to be the case that the vast majority of ordinary cavers actually have very few problems gaining access to the vast majority of UK caves.

 

[Blakethwaite]

The right thing, for the majority of people.

It might not be fair to assume individual and/or local issues apply to the majority of people.

I'm not a member of any clique or secret society (that I'm telling of anyway...) yet my regular group has managed to regularly go underground in caves & mines in four distinct northern National Parks/ANOBs this year without suffering any access problems, furthermore access hasn't been a topic of conversation amongst any of the varying groups we've been either with or encountered. In addition permits have been arranged without difficuly for places that need them and trips have been arranged to gated & controlled places without issue.

The majority of people probably just get on with it & go caving or mine-exploring.

 

[NewStuff]

So why the continual mentions of gas axes or bolt croppers? Bit pointless, don't you think. Unless they are just meant to irritate.

Why the mention? Because that's what people are being driven to out of sheer frustration. It is what's coming if we don't give them an alternative. As Droid says, the "other side" will then respond with better locks and gates (not sure how to engineer against a gas-axe though), and a vicious circle will ensue. I sure as hell don't want to see that, so Ive got off my arse and tried to make a difference.

Bollocks. Law breaking won't solve problems, especially as there are actually far fewer real problems than you claim. There may well be some problems in some areas that annoy some people, but it does seem to be the case that the vast majority of ordinary cavers actually have very few problems gaining access to the vast majority of UK caves.

Not bollocks. There are issues, but most people that I speak to intimate that access is bloody tenuous as it is, and they don't want to jeopardise it with the fear of petty retribution, so they sure as hell 'aint rocking the boat. Draw your own parallels to various schemes of governance in foreign climes. People who want to go places, dare not speak out because the current list of places they *can* go is likely to get smaller. Please tell me you think that's fucked up and needs something doing about it? This applies to people across a fair portion of the country, not just N.Wales.

Blakethwaite - see above.

 

[graham]

People who want to go places, dare not speak out because the current list of places they *can* go is likely to get smaller. Please tell me you think that's fucked up and needs something doing about it? This applies to people across a fair portion of the country, not just N.Wales.

I don't think it's fucked up. I think it's unsubstantiated crap.

 

[droid]

And you've said the same thing ia about 4 threads now (and counting).

How many people have had their minds changed by this polemic?

I've caved in Yorkshire, no problems.
I've caved in Derbyshire, no problems.
I've caved in the Mendips, no problems.
I've caved in S Wales, no problems.
Was down a gated slate mine in N Wales Sunday, no problems.

'A fair proportion of the country'? Don't think so. Just get organised.