Conservation and consequences of CRoW access applied to caving.

[Alex]

I would have thought if the Landowner had nothing to do with it then he still has nothing to do with it despite it being left on his land so the laws broken would be against the person who put it on the land not the land owner.

If a mate lends me his PS3 for example but I live in a rented flat. My Landlord would not give two hoots that I cleeved it in two in a rage but my mate would.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

I don't need it explaining Graham.  I have a good relationships with a lot of land owners in my area so as I keep saying, I wouldn't do anything outside the landowners wishes.  How many times do I have to explain this? 

 

[graham]

I don't need it explaining Graham.  I have a good relationships with a lot of land owners in my area so as I keep saying, I wouldn't do anything outside the landowners wishes.  How many times do I have to explain this? 

So, have the landowners given you permission to remove this illicit gate?

 

[NewStuff]

In this area, it couldn't be further from the present situation. I am hoping that CRoW can give a ray of hope, however small, and start a reversal of this, to a situation You describe where it is easy to get somewhere.

So there are various gated natural cave entrances on access land where you are, which are currently nearly impossible to get into 'legitimately'?

As someone else said - that sounds like something you probably should take up with the appropriate body, rather than repeatedly bringing up your support for extra-legal activities.

Go back, read my posts, and then you may have half a clue. I do *not* support gate removal willy-nilly. I can understand why some people remove them out of sheer frustration, and should the shenanigans carry on, I will have a harder time condemning it.

Should something really fucked up happen, such as a gating that is plainly not needed or asked for by the landowner (In N.Wales, such an occurrence would not surprise me in the slightest), then I will happily cut the f***** off. However, none of that means that I actively condone gate removal of all gates at this point in time.

This shit has been going on for years. Those installing gating don't give a f*** about what "appropriate body" may or may not think. Whoever is slapping the wrists doesn't have any teeth as far as these people are concerned. That is why I don't go to the appropriate body.

Is is a requirement I missed for membership of this board to have flawed or selective reading comprehension?

 

[graham]

I don't understand. If, as is being claimed, gates are being installed without permission from landowners, why are those complaining not speaking to the landowners about this?

Or are we only hearing a partial story, here?

 

[peterk]

There does seem to be some history with gates in N Wales - http://goo.gl/0BkQL

 

[NewStuff]

I don't understand. If, as is being claimed, gates are being installed without permission from landowners, why are those complaining not speaking to the landowners about this?

Or are we only hearing a partial story, here?

Nope, on one instance here is an ongoing issue at this point with a landowner and unwanted gate(s). I am directly involved with trying to placate the owner. I have yet to ascertain what club put it on (if it was mentioned, he's forgotten), but it was that rusty, it hadn't been opened in years.  I may be able to arrange access, I may not, as the landowner is understandably fucked off by what has happened. He's been told if someone gets hurt down there, he's on the hook for to the tune of millions. This is, obviously, bollocks, as it used to have a fence, and a danger, keep out sign on it, which would have covered his arse legally, as you couldn't "stumble" into it, access would have been a deliberate choice. The gate was purely to allow the club to restrict access, and it's this kind of bullshit that makes people anti-gates. It may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but this shit makes people frustrated.

His main point is that he doesn't give a rats arse if we go down it, as long as he is covered, but after the line he's been fed, he's doing research. The outcome depends on that, and possibly what his lawyer says.

Needless to say, the gates are going

 

[droid]

That's one instance, that's understadably causing stress.

But you seem to have a more general problem in N Wales. What's the story with other sites?

Is this a 'falling out' between personalities?

 

[NewStuff]

That's one instance, that's understadably causing stress.

But you seem to have a more general problem in N Wales. What's the story with other sites?

Is this a 'falling out' between personalities?

While this is just one case in N.Wales, from what I hear, there are other cases around the country, but I can't comment as I don't have first-hand experience. I do encourage other that have this experience in other parts of the country to talk about it. If the people or groups doing this are named shamed, who knows, maybe something will happen. It's not as if it can get any worse really, is it? I would suggest that there's certainly a lot of friction at Draenan (for whatever reason) , but that's another thread.

I don't think it's a "I don't like them" personality issue. It seems to be a textbook case of empire building. There is no reason for this gate in particular, other than to stop non-members going in. It hadn't been opened in years (very nearly rusted shut), but access was still denied to others via bullshit reasons given to the landowner.

Other sites have various issues, ranging from "You need a leader, there are none available" and never are, despite repeated requests. Plain old "f*** off, no" to requests, and "join the club" to members of other clubs and people with DIM BCA and more years of experience than I will likely ever have. There are other problems too, but I'll let people with more experience at attempting to get legit access to those sites have their say.

 

[droid]

I do encourage other that have this experience in other parts of the country to talk about it. If the people or groups doing this are named shamed, who knows, maybe something will happen. It's not as if it can get any worse really, is it? I would suggest that there's certainly a lot of friction at Draenan (for whatever reason) , but that's another thread.

I suggested ths approach way back in the access dicussion.
My sig below is the reaction from one correspondant.

The reason I suggested it, is so that the people responsible for the gating to explain their logic for gating. I see nothing in any thread to change my reasoning.

Let's not kid ourselves that word of what's said on here isn't getting passed on to the relevent parties.

 

[graham]

One can see from that that there are some problems, but I suggest that they are not to do with the systems per se but rather with the way they have been applied and implemented.

I won't go into detail on the example mentioned, Draenen, as that is nothing more than a fit of pique by a few individuals who simply want to get their own way. Most cavers would agree that getting access to that cave is not usually a problem. However, I will give another example of where apparently restrictive systems can work perfectly well and that is Reservoir Hole.

Anybody who uses this site will have noticed (how could they not!) that there has been a major find made at that site in the recent past. They will also, however, have noticed that a lot of work has been put in over the winter to put conservation measures in place and to install necessary aids. Now that these measures have been completed, these same people have been leading visitors into the cave on a, quite intensive, basis. Over time, pressure for visits will drop off & they will fall to a more manageable number, but in the mean time nobody* can fault the explorers for their work in making their find accessible.

*Doubtless some miserable bugger will, though.

 

[NewStuff]

Let's not kid ourselves that word of what's said on here isn't getting passed on to the relevent parties.

I hope to hell it is. Empire building, regardless of location, is bullshit. Many people are sick of it, and I suspect some "innocent" parties/gates/mines are going to get caught in the crossfire. If any "relevant parties" are reading this, I suggest you sort your shit out.

One can see from that that there are some problems, but I suggest that they are not to do with the systems per se but rather with the way they have been applied and implemented.

No, the problem is in the system. Is it so hard to visualise access based on Your own decisions and abilities? If there were no problems, these threads would be an occasional thing, and not a multi-thread, ongoing issue as the are now.

I won't go into detail on the example mentioned, Draenen, as that is nothing more than a fit of pique by a few individuals who simply want to get their own way.

Why not go into detail? I have no idea what has happened other than gates were removed and padlocks changed. That alone indicates an issue that *needs* sorting out. If access was not an issue, would the padlocks have been changed repeatedly, gates removed? That's a hell of a campaign, not to mention risk, to keep up for "a few individuals" who are having a fit of pique.

 

[graham]

Let's not kid ourselves that word of what's said on here isn't getting passed on to the relevent parties.

I hope to hell it is. Empire building, regardless of location, is bullshit. Many people are sick of it, and I suspect some "innocent" parties/gates/mines are going to get caught in the crossfire. If any "relevant parties" are reading this, I suggest you sort your shit out.

One can see from that that there are some problems, but I suggest that they are not to do with the systems per se but rather with the way they have been applied and implemented.

No, the problem is in the system. Is it so hard to visualise access based on Your own decisions and abilities? If there were no problems, these threads would be an occasional thing, and not a multi-thread, ongoing issue as the are now.

No, the problems are, quite clearly, with some people. Key, permit and leader systems can and do work perfectly well elsewhere.

I won't go into detail on the example mentioned, Draenen, as that is nothing more than a fit of pique by a few individuals who simply want to get their own way.

Why not go into detail? I have no idea what has happened other than gates were removed and padlocks changed. That alone indicates an issue that *needs* sorting out. If access was not an issue, would the padlocks have been changed repeatedly, gates removed? That's a hell of a campaign, not to mention risk, to keep up for "a few individuals" who are having a fit of pique.

Because the detail bores the tits off me. As I said, most ordinary cavers seem to have no problem gaining access to this cave with no real difficulty. What needs sorting out are the thieves. That is not my job.

 

[NewStuff]

Ah, it bores You, so it's not important, and everyone else can go jump as long as the favoured ones have access.

Understood.

I can't see You ever changing, but I suspect yourself, and people like You become more progressively more irrelevant as time goes on and new people, who want change and openness fill the ranks. The sooner the better, because it's attitudes like Yours that prevent this caving and exploring from progressing on a cohesive front, and instead we end up bickering like schoolkids.

And, for the umpteenth time, if there wasn't a bloody access problem, "thieves" would not be an issue
It may not be your job, but if you care about the caves as much as You blow hot air about, don't You feel a moral obligation to help sort this shit out?

 

[graham]

Ah, it bores You, so it's not important, and everyone else can go jump as long as the favoured ones have access.

Can you not fucking read? I repeat, ordinary cavers have no problem accessing that cave.

If access has become more difficult - for anybody - it is because the thieves have removed the lock that it is easy to get the key for.

 

[Brains]

Ah, it bores You, so it's not important, and everyone else can go jump as long as the favoured ones have access.

Can you not fucking read? I repeat, ordinary cavers have no problem accessing that cave.

If access has become more difficult - for anybody - it is because the thieves have removed the lock that it is easy to get the key for.

Except when the lock has been changed, again

 

[Peter Burgess]

If someone has an attitude problem in their relationships with others, which manifests itself as ad hominem attacks and belittling comments, then the only person who can possibly do anything about it is the person with the attitude problem. There are one or two prime examples of people with "attitude" in this debate. Sort out your attitude, then sort out the access problem.

 

[graham]

Ah, it bores You, so it's not important, and everyone else can go jump as long as the favoured ones have access.

Can you not fucking read? I repeat, ordinary cavers have no problem accessing that cave.

If access has become more difficult - for anybody - it is because the thieves have removed the lock that it is easy to get the key for.

Except when the lock has been changed, again

By the thieves.

Unless you have access to the lock they are putting on. In which case you must know who they are, in which case I suggest you share that information with the Police.

 

[blackholesun]

As no one is claiming to know what the intentions are of the persons who removed the Draenen key, is there much point in speculating on them? They may be nothing to do with access.

I'm also pretty sure that discussion of the Draenen entrance has little to do with with discussion of caves on CROW land.

 

[Brains]

Oh dear twisting the topic again - the lock being changed prevents permissive access. It then becomes a problem. For everyone.
Sadly I have only had one trip in there and that was before this fuss blew up. I dont bother much with the dips and S Wales as the effort is out of proportion to the caving I could get done due to distance, accomodation, limited time and access issues.
Please dont slander me or others by accusing us of being in cahoots with the lock changers. For all we know it was yourself as an act of radical preservationism and elitism  :ras:
Was your application for "Grumpy old men" turned down, had a abad day, got toothache? I neither know nor care but please try and be constructive rather than obstructive. You have a wealth of experience and knowledge, contacts and skills that could be put to good use enhancing Brotish caving, in all respects. You choose, at least on here, to denigrate and bluster