Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.

Oceanrower

Active member
Benfool said:
Yep, you only have to identify yourself if you're suspected of a crime (unless you're driving a motor vehicle).

In the case of breaking Covid restrictions, simply being outside your house is evidence of breaking the restrictions - so it would be against the law to refuse to identify to a police officer. If you refused to give an satisfactory excuse of why you were outside of your home, then you would be in breach of the regulations and you will be read your rights, fined and/or taken to court.

If you refused to give a valid excuse when questioned, then subsequently gave one in court then your defence would be severally damaged (as per your right to silence, ie Miranda rights).

Much easier to say "I'm out for my daily exercise"  and let the cops prove otherwise.

B

There's a few errors in there.

To start with, being outside your house is NOT evidence of breaking the restrictions. It is an offence to be outside your house without a (non exhaustive) reasonable excuse. If you have a reasonable excuse, therefore, you are not breaking the restrictions.

If you give a reasonable excuse you have committed no offence and, so, do NOT have to identify yourself to an officer. See the recent case where the police in the West Midlands gave an apology to a youngster for this very matter.

Your next paragraph, I can assure you a Miranda warning has NEVER been given out in the UK!

The last sentence, I agree with...
 

Oceanrower

Active member
To all those above saying th if we had closed our borders, we could eradicate it, sorry. No.

Unless you close every border in every country in the world and don't EVER open them until the disease is eradicated in every country in the world, you have not eradicated it. You have just delayed it entering.

 

ChrisJC

Well-known member
pwhole said:
Foresight is possibly an even more wonderful gift than hindsight, but few use it as it requires confidence and integrity as well as luck - and it may sometimes be wrong, whereas hindsight is always right, but that's why that's so fatuous when used by folks in charge. Most of us on here (and my other friends in life) have all been ahead of the curve compared to the government since this started - it's like watching a bunch of malevolent toddlers, frankly. Saying they're hopeless is giving them too much credit though, as much of this is sheer mendacity, and in many cases, pure evil. It's been my contention since last March that the government were following a policy of herd immunity for at least the first few months, and only reluctantly since have they accepted that such a policy is insane, though they're still hanging on by their fingertips in some cases.

There's been no serious effort to restrict travel, in or out - as NewStuff pointed out, we're an island, and could have eradicated this in two months if we'd really tried. Every policy has been counter-productive at best, deliberately dangerous at worst. 'Eat Out to Help Out' was the most irresponsible policy I can imagine in a pandemic - but the public could have pointed that out and refused to participate. But no, all the retards flocked out in their millions - I know, they were in the restaurant below my flat every night for a month, packed to the gills. One night I enjoyed myself by standing outside the window staring at a huge family gathering a metre away, scrutinising them like they were chimpanzees - it was really funny and I totally ruined their evening.

So I think in many cases, you get what you deserve. The country is in a woeful state in many, many areas, and the denial in facing up to them is staggering to see, both in the government and the population. Think about property in the City of London, most currently empty, and the cash value of all that, and then go to some shitty run-down estate in any city, where many are skint, ill or insane, and try and work out how this can happen here, the smartest, funniest, least racist and most liberal democracy on the planet. If you're better-off you'll never meet these people and could forget they exist, but there's millions of them out there, and they're not a happy or healthy bunch. Take-up levels of the vaccine in those areas will be much lower, and as has been pointed out all week on the news, the BAME community too are way, way down on 'indigenous white' (as they called us on the news) members of the public - so when people start realising that a huge chunk of the population aren't (or won't get) vaccinated, they will be shunned, like lepers. Vaccine passports will then start to be counterfeited to get round that, and off we go again. There's some foresight for you - 10th February 2021, PW.

JG Ballard would be loving this if he were still alive - so much good material for another novel.

It is good that you have made some sort of prediction, for the record. We can see how accurate it was in time. Of course, you are not going to be held responsible for your choices, unlike the politicians.

I still think you are overlooking the contribution hindsight is making to your perspective on this.

I clearly recall in the early days, a lot of posts from perfectly normal people making all sorts of criticisms of the government, which with hindsight make me glad that they are not in charge. Yet they were very sure of their opinions. One even rang me up and ranted for 30 mins after I publicly questioned his assertion that Covid-19 was just like a bad flu, and it was outrageous locking us all up!

I have noticed that Social Media sages making fewer and fewer predictions now as even the most opinionated have realised that nobody has a clue how this is going to pan out.

And I saw somewhere else a criticism of the government for doing U-turns. I would prefer they did a U-turn if the situation changed rather than doggedly stuck to their guns to save face!

I am certainly glad I am not in charge, as they will get stick for every decision.

Chris.


 

JoshW

Well-known member
I think we could use the power of hindsight without having had the actual event happen to us, we saw what happened in Italy when they didn?t lock down and we saw what happened in China/others when they did. That should have been all the evidence needed. Italy was going through thousands of deaths and still no action from our government.

As for the getting stick for every decision they make, there are several world leaders that will have had no stick as they?ve handled it fantastically. Just because a situation hasn?t happened before those in charge should still be accountable to any action (or inaction) they have taken
 

al

Member
ChrisJC said:
Of course, you are not going to be held responsible for your choices, unlike the politicians.

Excuse me! When have politicians in this country ever been held responsible?

In ten years time Johnson might get a bit of light Chilcotting, but he'll not be held responsible in the way that, say, a business man would, if he applied the level of due dilegence that this shower have applied to Brexit or Covid.

 

royfellows

Well-known member
Oceanrower said:
Your next paragraph, I can assure you a Miranda warning has NEVER been given out in the UK!

Its US law, in the UK its the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE).

Re Chris's comments above.

I am not wanting to be part of the discussion, bar the above and to say that everyone who states this or that will definitely happen, whatever, just disappears in the sunset like the Lone Ranger when it doesn't. There is nothing new in this. Remember the Mayans on AN?

Its all belief, and I mean all.
 

PeteHall

Moderator
JoshW said:
we saw what happened in Italy when they didn?t lock down and we saw what happened in China/others when they did.

China operates a totalitarian regime and quite frankly I'm bloody glad this country hasn't descended to the level of taping up people's doors so they know who's left, or brought the military in to enforce a lockdown. Such actions do not belong in a liberal democracy.

It is also worth noting that these measures, whether or not you agree with them (which I don't), are much easier to enforce when you have populations living in tower blocks with their own state employed wardens. These sorts of measures would be completely impossible to enforce in suburban, let alone rural Britain.
 

mikem

Well-known member
Plus rural areas of China don't generally have access to good healthcare, so even the authorities have no real idea about how many people have actually been affected:
https://www.aetnainternational.com/en/about-us/explore/living-abroad/culture-lifestyle/health-care-quality-in-the-far-east.html
 

JoshW

Well-known member
ChrisJC said:
JoshW said:
there are several world leaders that will have had no stick as they?ve handled it fantastically.

Such as whom?

Chris.

Jacinda Ardern(NZ), scott Morrison (Oz), Nguyen Phu trong (Vietnam), tsai ing-wen (taiwan). Also happen to be countries where not many have died so it?s relatively easy to not be unhappy with your leadership.

PeteHall said:
JoshW said:
we saw what happened in Italy when they didn?t lock down and we saw what happened in China/others when they did.

China operates a totalitarian regime and quite frankly I'm bloody glad this country hasn't descended to the level of taping up people's doors so they know who's left, or brought the military in to enforce a lockdown. Such actions do not belong in a liberal democracy.

It is also worth noting that these measures, whether or not you agree with them (which I don't), are much easier to enforce when you have populations living in tower blocks with their own state employed wardens. These sorts of measures would be completely impossible to enforce in suburban, let alone rural Britain.

Hence the ?others? inclusion, Vietnam for me was impressive in their handling of it, early lockdown and closing of borders, great tracing system, and enforced quarantine on entry (gov designated hotels).
 

ChrisJC

Well-known member
JoshW said:
Jacinda Ardern(NZ), scott Morrison (Oz),

Setting aside countries with a very different system to ours (and thus a different set of tools available to those in charge), at this moment in time, certainly with NZ, they seem to have made a better job. However, whether being 5000 miles from anywhere with 3 people a week travelling there has anything to do with it I don't know.

But it's not yet over. The arrival of the vaccine might well save them. 'Cos at the moment, they have just delayed the inevitable. You can't stay in lockdown for ever. If the vaccine does truly knock it on the head, then yeah, NZ / Aus did good. Fair play to them.

However, until we get to the end of all of this, I'm not going to judge anybody.

Right now it seems like we are calling the winners at half-time...

Chris.

 

JoshW

Well-known member
ChrisJC said:
JoshW said:
Jacinda Ardern(NZ), scott Morrison (Oz),

Setting aside countries with a very different system to ours (and thus a different set of tools available to those in charge), at this moment in time, certainly with NZ, they seem to have made a better job. However, whether being 5000 miles from anywhere with 3 people a week travelling there has anything to do with it I don't know.

But it's not yet over. The arrival of the vaccine might well save them. 'Cos at the moment, they have just delayed the inevitable. You can't stay in lockdown for ever. If the vaccine does truly knock it on the head, then yeah, NZ / Aus did good. Fair play to them.

However, until we get to the end of all of this, I'm not going to judge anybody.

Right now it seems like we are calling the winners at half-time...

Chris.

The argument would be that if everyone had dealt with it as effectively as these countries (where free travel within the country is now allowed and festivals etc are happening) then free movement between countries could resume. They dealt with it effectively however until other countries catch up they?ll presumably keep their borders shut.

I?m hopefully not calling anyone a winner here, but certainly the fact that it?s still ongoing shouldn?t prevent open criticism of obvious mistakes by leadership that have been ignoring scientific advice until forced to u-turn
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Tonight's epistle from Devi Sridhar on C4 News was well worth seeing, so here she is - her quiet exasperation is both reassuring (in that she's smarter than the government) and depressing (that she's not leading the government) at the same time. She'd be much better than - well, that fat loser, but I'm sure she's far too busy helping save the country from itself, and she's disqualified, being American - we really don't deserve her. Starts at 7:52 if you can't tolerate Charles Walker, Tory MP before her:

https://www.channel4.com/news/its-easy-to-complain-and-say-lockdown-is-awful-whats-really-hard-is-to-find-solutions-prof-devi-sridhar

To give credit where credit's due, Matt Hancock is the only prominent member of the Cabinet that I struggle to criticise - in fact I do admire the guy, despite the pink tie. He's on top of his brief (subject to the whim of the Fat Loser), he gets hammered and keeps coming back, he clearly has a conscience (he's clammed up and gone moist-eyed plenty of times in interviews), which is good, as that beats most of them already, and he's not afraid to give folks some stick, including us, when we need it. So I propose Matt Hancock for Prime Minister - there's another gamble. 50p says it's true.
 

JoshW

Well-known member
Once covid is a thing of the past I expect gove/hunt to combine and stab Boris in the back before losing a leadership contest to sunak.

Can?t see Hancock getting too far, and not entirely sure I trust his crocodile tears
 

pwhole

Well-known member
You probably wouldn't trust mine either, but it's happened a couple of times a week to me since last summer, and that's never happened frequently before, so I'm inclined to give him alone the benefit of the doubt - and I was brought up with 'Never Trust a Tory' above my bed. Most of the rest of them are a disgrace. I can't see Sunak lasting five minutes in the real world. He's like the Donny Osmond of bankers.
 

al

Member
ChrisJC said:
al said:
Excuse me! When have politicians in this country ever been held responsible?

At the next election?

Chris.

Exactly - which proves my point. Even if Johnson doesn't get re-elected (I'm sure he'll stand down long before the election) he'll walk away with a pension most people can only dream of.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Ah, but did you notice - when they were doing the applause for Captain Tom the other day, Johnson and Carrie Symonds were social distancing, outside No. 10. They're a couple, apparently, who live together, with a baby of their own conjunction. Apparently.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Back in (I think) March, when the first lockdown was being posited, the modellers were quite clear that one lockdown wouldn't be enough, and proposed a series of lockdowns that took effect whenever the level of new cases rise too high. If the government had actually done that, and stuck to it, we'd not have had a second (or third) wave. During the summer transmission was very low, and it didn't immediately rise up when lockdown was eased. If the government had gone back into a hard, but short, lockdown the moment cases started to rise again, we would have had less lockdown in total and probably 30-40,000 fewer people would have died. If the government had just done what the modellers said in March.

I can't completely blame the government for the first wave. The second, and the long series of ineffective half-lockdowns, is inexcusable.
 
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