Data Protection Act

[graham]

Secondly, first time applicants for passports do indeed have to undergo an interview, see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4967276.stm for example.

Perhaps there should be the option for the interviewer to visit the applicant for the interview, and not the other way round. Like farm inspections - although you can't take the farm to the inspector. If they want to confirm what I say about myself is true, then come to me to ask me about it.

Too expensive. they can do 15 other interviews in the time it takes them to travel to your place.

 

[darkplaces]

As far as I'm aware none of my rights have been curtailed or withdrawn, ditto freedom.

Stunning Job AndyF I restrained myself to answer that one...

The 'right' to peacefully demonstrate without interferences has gone 1square mile around government / Parliament. You have to request from the police a permit to make your demonstration answering all sorts of questions and 'checks'. Anything remotely looking like a demonstration outside the Parliament buildings and the police take a big interest in you. Evidence of a police state?

The ID database has already started with Passports. How long before it is a requirement to carry ID in your own country, if it isn't a requirement already? Just think, you don't want to carry your ID in your wet soggy caving suit yet you might, in the not too distance future be turned into a criminal by not doing so.

I guess its the turning of good people like yourselves into criminals which concerns me. Mind you most of us are criminals already, 6/10 according to the BBC, not really surprising with all the new laws that keep being added that you don't know about, 3000 new laws I heard thanks to Labour?

 

[Cookie]

"Rights" cannot be curtialled or withdrawn - thats what makes them "rights" by definition. If they CAN be curtailed or withdrawn then they are merely priveleges....     

Except by Government, and this Government seems to be attacking them with a zeal hither too not seen before.

I specifically didn't vote Labour at the last election because of the ID Scheme.

I know enough about computer systems to know the kind of power that uniquely identifying everyone gives the Government. Currently we have a relatively benign Government. That can change and all the systems will be in place for the Big Brother State.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I believe it is the case that police discourage drivers from keeping ID in their cars, and prefer documents to be presented at a later date at a Police station, as this reduces the risk of identity theft from car break-ins etc.

 

[damian]

You now have to have a passport for internal, domestic flights. You have to have a full interview before they'll give you a passport. There's just two to be getting on with!

I do not believe that either of these statements is true. Can you give a link to something that would enlighten me otherwise, please? My wife has travelled by air within the EU using only her photographic national ID card to gain entry, and others do the same. I think you will find that for internal flights you only need photographic ID to prove you are who you claim to be. An understandable security measure, I think.

I stand corrected .. photographic ID is what's needed. I also happen to agree that it's understandable and don't happen to have a problem with it, but that wasn't the point.

As for an interview for a passport......

As Graham's link showed, this is indeed true. Again, I don't actually have much of a problem with it ... except that it would be nice if you could go in the evenings.

 

[AndyF]

I believe it is the case that police discourage drivers from keeping ID in their cars, and prefer documents to be presented at a later date at a Police station, as this reduces the risk of identity theft from car break-ins etc.

Hehe, they do prefer that because if you produce all the ID at the roadside they have to stand there and fill all the forms in there and then, which they can't be bothered with. If they give you a producer it shifts the paperwork onto the station...

This happened to me and they STILL tried to give me a producer, even though I had everything. Amazingly after threatening a complaint if they wouldn't take whatever details they required there and then they changed their minds and sent me on my way....

I also appeared on a "stop & question" list and was stopped 5 times in 12 weeks. Eventually we were told that we had been "spotted parked in woods in Staffordshire". The real reason turned out to be we had been spotted getting changed into boiler suits and helmets etc. at the Wateways Car park on the day of the Bloor Hunt, and had been marked up as "hunt sabataeurs"...which gave the cops licence to stop and hassle me every time they saw me....

I was even getting stopped at customs while LEAVING the country.... I kept records and threatened a formal complaint if it didnt stop - which- surprisingly, it did.

And remember kids I've "got nothing to hide"

 

[Londoncaver]

For those saying nobody has been affected by the information held on the DVLA database, here are details of a vehicle registration officer who misused it to help out the militant animal rights campaign at Darley Oaks Farm. Animal rights activists took numbers of vehicles making deliveries to the farm. He ran them through the computer, and got the names and addresses of the drivers. The activists then went around their houses to intimidate and terrorise their families.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/3951945.stm

 

[cap n chris]

Londoncaver, sadly I reckon you're wasting your time on this forum with this example - no doubt people here will cite your example of a good reason why things should remain as they are, terrorising families and breaking the law being standard fare for people.

 

[darkplaces]

On the subject of the DVLA and traffic violations being such a problem our right to silence has been removed, if you say nothing your guilty, or cant provide proof of innocence your guilty. Now we are guilty before presumed innocent in this country, its a fact.

Problem for the 'Innocent people who have nothing to hide'... Is the recent rise in car clones, someone takes your number plate and applys to a car that looks the same and your stuffed basicly. You will have a very expensive and legal court case to prove your innocence, like the chap on the telly had to.

 

[Dep]

I believe it is the case that police discourage drivers from keeping ID in their cars, and prefer documents to be presented at a later date at a Police station, as this reduces the risk of identity theft from car break-ins etc.

I have been reminded on several occassions by the police at the roadside that I am obliged by law to carry my driving licence when I drive. Yes I am aware we have the producer system, and my answer is always that my licence is at home in a safe place where I won't lose it and they can always give me a producer, which they do.

So yes your point is correct in practice, but as I said the law already requires you to carry your driving licence, which is effectively an ID card if it's one of the photcard type.

As someone else in this thread points out, we currently have a reasonably benign government, we ho choose not to rigorously enforce this law - but it is already on the books and has been for decades.


As for car cloning I have had recent experience of this receiving  a parking ticket for a place I have never been to. As it happened I did have proof (although tenuous) that I was elsewhere at the time, and eventually they dropped it.

But it was indeed the case that I was required to prove my innocence rather than them prove my guilt, although I did also make this point to them and challenged them to prove I was there. Which of course they couldn't as I wasn't!

 

[martinr]

I was required to prove my innocence rather than them prove my guilt

Hi Dep

I am trying to understand why you have a problem with this? You were presented with evidence that you had apparently committed an offence. You could have chosen not to prove your innocence, but as the evidence was against you then you would have been found guilty. You presented different evidence which showed your were not guilty of the offence, or at least there was a reasonable doubt you committed it. This is called your defence. Or as you describe it, "required to prove my innocence rather than them prove my guilt". Throughout this process you remained innocent until proven guility. As opposed to being guilty until proven innocent, which is different.

Or am I wrong?

 

[darkplaces]

I feel you may be wrong in some respects, the point becomes much more scary when the offence is of terrorism or rape or kiddy fiddling. Stay silent and you are assumed to be guilty (and processed as such) which is different to what it used to be, something has changed your right to silence was removed (for motoring offences at least, what's next?). The human part has gone for motoring offences so your automaticly sent a demand and informed if you accept it you will gain 3 points etc, or you can challenge it and face stiffer punishment. Which if you cant prove you were elsewhere is what will happen. At the low end of the scale it does seam trivial but at the end of the day THEY have to prove you guilty.

Under criminal law you are "innocent until proven guilty" . The burden of proof  is upon the Crown.

Yes I have just googled and found it and don't know how correct that is but as a layman that is what I am lead to think.

 

[graham]

Two points: firstly "they" have presented evidence of your guilt, if you do not challenge that evidence then you are accepting that they have proven you guilty.

Secondly, the right to remain silent was compromised under PACE (I think) when it accepted that a jury could draw conclusions from your refusal to mention something "that you might later rely on in court".

 

[Dep]

I was required to prove my innocence rather than them prove my guilt

Hi Dep
I am trying to understand why you have a problem with this? You were presented with evidence that you had apparently committed an offence. You could have chosen not to prove your innocence, but as the evidence was against you then you would have been found guilty. You presented different evidence which showed your were not guilty of the offence, or at least there was a reasonable doubt you committed it. This is called your defence. Or as you describe it, "required to prove my innocence rather than them prove my guilt". Throughout this process you remained innocent until proven guility. As opposed to being guilty until proven innocent, which is different.
Or am I wrong?

I understand your point, but I was not presented with evidence, just an allegation.

Evidence would have been a copy of the parking attendants form, or a photograph or a CCTV recording - I was given none of these just a demand to pay a parking fine.

My tenuous evidence to prove my guilt rested on the fact that _usually_ I drop my wife at work just before 09:00 and the offence took place (allegedly) at 09:35, I could not have driven from Surrey to Wandsworth in 35 minutes.

In truth I cannot recall whether I dropped her to work on that day or not - not really proof at all.

It would appear that they dropped it as they didn't have any evidence at all, and I made it quite clear that I would fight it and demanded that the burden of proff rest with them - I rather suspect they dropped it as potentially uneconomical to pursue in court.

I am still unsure as to whether this was a clone of my registration or an incorrectly recorded registration number of another vehicle, a scam or an admin cock-up.

Either way I am still inconvenienced and made anxious for no good reason and with no come-back on them.
I had to give up my time and pay for postage etc etc - it's not the cost but the principle.

I might also have been a meek or weaker-willed individual who might have just paid up to keep them quiet - there are people like that out there. Fortunately I'm not!

 

[AndyF]

This is nice read ....and food for thought for the "nothing to hide" brigade...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=369838&in_page_id=1770

Your DNA and ID data will follow the same path... 

 

[Dave H]

As for car cloning I have had recent experience of this receiving  a parking ticket for a place I have never been to. As it happened I did have proof (although tenuous) that I was elsewhere at the time, and eventually they dropped it.

But it was indeed the case that I was required to prove my innocence rather than them prove my guilt, although I did also make this point to them and challenged them to prove I was there. Which of course they couldn't as I wasn't!

My father has a van rusting away on his drive because it was cloned. The *&"$* told the DVLA that it had been sold to them, so they got a full set of documentation. The clone was subsequently scrapped and had all the documentation taken at that point.

When my dad went to renew his insurance, he was told that he could not insure the vehicle as it had been scrapped. The DVLA confirmed this. The Special Constable who lives in the village has been trying to help my father sort this out for well over a year - but all the documents 'prove' the scrapping and that my fathers vehicle doesn't exist.

• He won't use the vehicle because he can't get insurance
• He can't TAX the vehicle because it doesn't exist
• He can't sell the vehicle because the DVLA say it doesn't exist any more
• He can't scrap the vehicle because the DVLA say it doesn't exist any more
• It just sits rusting, and as it was his business vehicle, the business is no more!!!

 

[anfieldman]

This is nice read ....and food for thought for the "nothing to hide" brigade...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=369838&in_page_id=1770

Your DNA and ID data will follow the same path... 

Bloody terrible AndyF! 

I'm just glad that my fiancee and I drive company cars. Like to see them track me down.

 

[ttxela]

Hehe, they do prefer that because if you produce all the ID at the roadside they have to stand there and fill all the forms in there and then, which they can't be bothered with. If they give you a producer it shifts the paperwork onto the station...

This happened to me and they STILL tried to give me a producer, even though I had everything. Amazingly after threatening a complaint if they wouldn't take whatever details they required there and then they changed their minds and sent me on my way....

I also appeared on a "stop & question" list and was stopped 5 times in 12 weeks. Eventually we were told that we had been "spotted parked in woods in Staffordshire". The real reason turned out to be we had been spotted getting changed into boiler suits and helmets etc. at the Wateways Car park on the day of the Bloor Hunt, and had been marked up as "hunt sabataeurs"...which gave the cops licence to stop and hassle me every time they saw me....

I was even getting stopped at customs while LEAVING the country.... I kept records and threatened a formal complaint if it didnt stop - which- surprisingly, it did.

And remember kids I've "got nothing to hide"

I worked a few years back with a young lad who was "known" to the police for various fairly minor motoring offences committed on a fairly frequent basis.

In one week he was stopped three times and given "producers". After the third stop but before the 7 day period from the first was up, he took his documents all in order into the police station. A few days later he was stopped and arrested for failing to produce his documents. When we went in to try and sort it out, it turned out that producing his documents once for all three stops was not sufficient. We had to go and get his documents again and produce them at the counter for the second time and then the desk sergeant made him go to the back of the queue and produce them a third time.......

 

[whitelackington]

Apparently some of these recent "suspected" National Health Terrorists
have been aprehended because of index recogonition :-\

 

[AndyF]

Apparently some of these recent "suspected" National Health Terrorists
have been aprehended because of index recogonition :-\

If this was true, and the system is already in place - why arent they catching every car thief going....?

This is bull5hit PR to get the public 'on-side' for when they DO roll it out.....