Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)

[NigR]

BradW,

Fact: Martin Laverty, Ian Adams, Rob Jones and myself were all shocked by the state of the abandoned camp.

Fact: Huge and his friends were not shocked.

Fact: It takes more disgusting litter left in caves to shock them than it does us.

Suggestion: Maybe it is because they have seen more of it in the past than we have, certainly none of us had ever seen anything like it.

Alternative suggestions welcome (other than calling us liars, please).


I am not "trying to take credit for inspiring the clean up" and would much prefer not to have had to write my initial complaint to Cambrian Caving Council asking that it be brought to the attention of the PDCMG. However, if I had not done so absolutely nothing would have been done about it, would it?

I do agree that Huge and his friends should be commended and I look forward to their future efforts to clean up other OUCC camps. These are a little deeper into the cave, so carrying the tackle bags full of crap out should be even more pleasurable next time.

 

[BradW]

Ship badger I think you already know what I think. I think it is great that there are still cavers prepared to sort out problems in caves, caused by others, without making an almighty fuss about. Without expecting a "prize" for doing it. I think it is great that they just go caving without any fuss or attention. They don't worry unduly about others' feelings on access or conservation, and certainly don't think that noisy and antagonistic comments do anything to further the case for responsible caving in the UK. Perhaps you were expecting me to make comments about messy cavers or a single entrance policy. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[AWW]

Suggestion: Maybe it is because they have seen more of it in the past than we have, certainly none of us had ever seen anything like it.

Alternative suggestions welcome (other than calling us liars, please).

Your reasoning is fallacious. The suggestion could also be made that you and your companions are all prima donnas that exagerate what are relatively minor faults and problems and love to run around waving your hands and shouting "Shame, shame."
But that would be fallacious too, so I won't make the suggestion.

Well done Huge and friends.

 

[Alkapton]

To Huge and his butties.   

You tend to be supprised by what you have not seen before.  If you have seen it all before then you are noit supprised.  So I find nothing wrong with eg. Stewarts or Nigs reasoning.  Neither do I see it as polerised axe-grinding unless the rule "Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints" is no longer seen as valid.

 

[NigR]

AWW,

No, my reasoning is not fallacious. It is precisely as Alkapton has just described.

Thank you for the suggestion you have not made.

Whether faults are minor or not is all a matter of perception, isn't it? Clearly, yours is vastly different to ours. What might be acceptable to some is not acceptable to others. It is up to the individual to decide the standards they wish to keep. Sadly, many people's standards these days leave an awful lot to be desired as is most apparent here.

 

[BradW]

Sadly, many people's standards these days leave an awful lot to be desired as is most apparent here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~<

 

[droid]

Confused of Tamworth.

If 'Huge' didn't want to make a fuss, as 'Brad' suggests, why post their commendable clean-up on a forum?

Just inform the relevant parties by PM. No post, no argument, no publicity.....


Aaaaah.....I see....

 

[AWW]

AWW,

No, my reasoning is not fallacious. It is precisely as Alkapton has just described.

Thank you for the suggestion you have not made.

Whether faults are minor or not is all a matter of perception, isn't it? Clearly, yours is vastly different to ours. What might be acceptable to some is not acceptable to others. It is up to the individual to decide the standards they wish to keep. Sadly, many people's standards these days leave an awful lot to be desired as is most apparent here.

Your reasoning is fallacious because you have made the leap to assuming that Huge and his friends must be used to great swathes of rubbish and thus not see anything wrong with what you and Stuart have described that, to me, engendered visions of the detritus of debauched revelry and associated filth that would require an effort akin to the clearing of Mr Trebus' house to rectify. However, the alternative assumption is that they turned the corner into the camp armed with a roll of council-strength refuse sacks, rubber gloves and litter pickers (for the more intimate items) to exclaim, "Well, this ain't nearly so bad as we thought it would be. Hey ho, lets get this spick and span and we'll be out of here" and set to with a whistle and a song.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

Your reasoning is fallacious. The suggestion could also be made that you and your companions are all prima donnas that exagerate what are relatively minor faults and problems and love to run around waving your hands and shouting "Shame, shame."

You don't even know me.  I've been caving all over the world, not just in South Wales and as such, I think I'm qualified to say "It was a significant amount of rubbish"  The state of the camp in Draenen was an absolute disgrace.  Far worse than the annoying cluster of litter you sometimes find where cavers haven't bothered taking their empty coke cans and crisp packets out with them.

Perhaps you should reserve your judgement of people you don't know.

Anyway, well done to those involved in the clean up and "shame, shame" on those who caused the problem!

Kind regards,

Rob Jones

 

[braveduck]

What a load of rubbish .

 

[NewStuff]

Because concrete is kind of hard to remove when it's set.

I don't think Roadworkers find it hard... and they tend to complain about it less. 

If you can get a jackhammer and suitable compressor to Drws Cefn, I'll take my hat off to you.

 

[Stuart France]

Many thanks to Huge & friends for removing the abandoned camp.

I never realised that clearing rubbish in caves could be so controversial or even competitive.

In the case of the 'Big Beauty' camp, the flattened floor space created for sleeping upon suggested two to four people involved. The abandoned material at this camp fitted with that observation.  So it is a bit unrealistic to expect to see something like a landfill.

Anyone should be able raise concerns about long-abandoned rubbish in caves without attracting personal critcism for so doing.  It is not helpful either to defocus the issue by claiming that small amounts of rubbish (as someone perceives them) are not that important.  Litter is anti-social and disrespectful whatever the amount or location.

So I'd like to suggest a protocol that people who cease to camp in caves take responsibility for removing their gear as soon as possible but in any case after one year (say) of their involvement in a camp ending.  There is a temptation to "leave stuff for the use of other campers" or "leave it just in case I want to camp here again".

If they default then it becomes their club's responsibility (if they were in a club).  If that doesn't work then it is the cave management committee's responsibility (if there is one).  Failing that, the regional council should deal with it.  One would hope that any regional council would be able to organise litter removal, but ultimately the buck would stop with BCA.

In the case of Big Beauty, the campers didn't deal with it, the club didn't deal with it, the cave management committee people who saw the camp didn't engage, the regional council flagged it up and asked for helpers, then some volunteers from South Wales dealt with it.

 

[NigR]

Well, we have not found any used condoms yet (haven't looked too hard, to be honest) but you can rest assured that if and when we do there will be pictures of these on here too.

I've read some truly bizarre stuff on this forum, particularly related to Draenen. However, I think this really takes the biscuit!

If it floats your boat Nig, go for it!

Rhys

Well, guess what has now been found at one of the OUCC camps deeper into the cave?!

Won't post a pic just yet (in case it offends anybody's sensibilities and has to be removed), so a written description will have to suffice:

durex
ULTRAstrong
LOT C9825BB F
EXP 2003-05

Bit past the sell by date but still wrapped up and ready for immediate use if anyone is in the mood whilst visiting War of the Worlds (doubtful if the original owner will be bothering to return for it). Plenty of other rotting crap to clear out if you have any energy left, so take an empty tackle bag or two!

 

[Huge]

I never realised that clearing rubbish in caves could be so controversial or even competitive.

:-

Thanks for the post and offer for help Stuart, but it on my list to complete over the coming months with working weekend in the planning for conservative work in Draenen. So no need to worry mate, it will be cleared

Joshua white
Conservative officer for draenen (pdcmg)

Stuart.  You were clearly not listening during the meeting. 

I believe that Chris Densham said several times that he would arrange the clear-up of the Big Beauty camp.

Josh - My suggested camp clean-up will go ahead as advertised.

 

[BradW]

How much did NigR bring out?

 

[NigR]

How much did NigR bring out?

Nothing whatsoever as I wasn't there. Neither of the boys who were happened to have an empty bag with them, so all is still in situ.

 

[Huge]

As I understand it (I haven't been back in there), apart from a stray, newly appeared, karrimat and a pot and some mugs for a drink stop at Out of the Blue, all the camping gear has now been removed from Draenen.

Following our trip, where we packed up the remains of a camp near Big Beauty Junction, at the start of Gone with the Wind, in about 20 minutes or so, three people have cleared the camp at Destiny Inlet in War of the Words, in a single trip.

As can be seen from quotes in the previous post, others had plans to clear camping gear from the cave. Three OUCC people, who had current camping gear there, plus the PDCMG Conservation Officer, have now cleared Dollimore's, again in a single trip. Unfortunately, it seems they did not have room, in their bags, for the newly appeared karrimat, which apparently is not OUCC gear.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Bit past the sell by date but still wrapped up and ready for immediate use...

You say that, but that's probably for stock control reasons. Is there a condom equivalent of Best Before, or Use By date ?

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Actually that is expiry date, not sell by, so seeing as condoms (apparantly) last up to 6 years, that could well be a 1999 vintage dunky.

 

[BradW]

Apparently, so big it wouldn't fit into an oversuit pocket.