(mods:- I agree this should be split to its own topic as it has sweet f a to do with Stewarts original post. Well the original post is essential because it has everything to do with it, but this is a really different topic here)
caving_fox. What exactly is your problem?
Consider the sentence "Astonishing, by the way, the variety of rubbish at the camp, as in the photo."
It is an observation , that?s the reason for "... by the way, ..." .
The main operative in the sentence is the word "variety".
Stewart is simply expressing his great surprise at the number of different kinds of crap left abandoned by people who really should know better.
Now take a good look at the photo (Ok, if you watch the film things get more explicit, but we are talking about the still image at the top of this topic, not the film) at the top of this thread. I would argue there are indeed a great many different classes of crap displayed.
It is clear from both your post above and your previous post that you are referring to the female contraceptive packaging (its irrelevant if all have been used or not used). It is also clear that you think referring to this particular class of crap involves sexism. In what way is mentioning abandoned tablets any more 'sexist' than mentioning sweet wrappers or bottles of alcohol?
Think how you would feel if you came across male contraceptives whilst caving, or were found in the camp which is the principal subject of this topic. Now hold that thought while I go into reminiscence.
I think it would be 1967 or 1968, so I be either 6 or 7. I think dinner time or afternoon break, I found very similar tablet packaging to the packaging we are talking about in the school playground. It sticks in my mind because I was fascinated by the fact you have to take each tablet on a particular day of the month. I wondered what condition the person who had used them had that would require the tablets to be taken on the right day. Very odd you would have a kind of 'calendar' printed on tablet packaging. Only many years later did I realise what they were or why the fact I was fascinated caused a certain amount of consternation with a particular teacher.
Today I take tablets (Ramipril, for hypertension = high blood pressure) that have the days of the week by each tablet/capsule.
Would it be any more or less disgusting for me to abandon my Ramipril packaging in a cave than it would be for someone to abandon a different sort of tablet packaging? Would it be more or less surprising to find Ramipril packaging than female contraceptive packaging?
Would Stewart express surprise if he found Ramipril packaging in a cave? Well probably not now after what has been seen. But yes it would have been included in the complaint - the pethidine was, wasn't it?
There is a very old rule in caving:- "Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints".
Sadly, not everybody in caving obeys the rules.
I've digressed enough, you can release that thought now.
What if I'd found male contraceptives in the playground. Do you think teachers/staff would have behaved the same or differently. Do you think they should behave the same or differently?
What if it were male contraceptives had been left in the cave (used or not), would you feel or behave the same way as you do now?
I would certainly be more disgusted had that been the case. Tablet packaging is just that - it signifies nothing - it has no 'added connotations'. Female contraceptive packaging is no exception. At least in this society male contraceptives carry a much greater psychological significance in people?s minds than a package of tablets. The pill is a pill like any other. The 'sheath' clearly has only one purpose and becomes a thing of mirth, disgust, filth, etc., that no mere tablet packaging (contraceptive or not) could ever equal.
When Stewart express surprise "at the variety" of crap left in the abandoned camp he does not single out any particular kind of crap, so why is it you clearly think he is referring to female contraceptives in particular? Do you think he is like a pimply adolescent sniggering in the playground? Are you the kind of person who would snigger at the site of Durex packet in Cantankerous Surveyors Passage?
I would like to think you answer "No" to all three questions, but your attitude suggests otherwise. What you 'should' be feeling is disgust and revulsion at the way in which clearly experienced cavers who give mouth to 'best cave conservation practice' think it?s acceptable to leave such crap behind, in such a mess and for so long. What you take into a cave you should take out. You take a shit you take it out. It is one thing to leave bed rolls and stoves neatly hidden in some obscure and unremarkable nook deep underground and quite another to leave (especially) perishable food, old wrappers, old medications, plastic bottles, general tat, rotting things that grow moulds no matter how intrinsically interesting the mould might be, etc., etc., etc.
Even if Stewart had singled out the female contraceptives I would still argue the absurdity of calling him a sexist (which you clearly are). If they were some other kind of tablet he would feel just as offended I think, well I would be anyway. It?s so easy, it?s a little thing, how hard is it to carry out? It's not like the result of last night?s vindaloo, which is a bit impossible to carry out, so you look for a stream, you make an effort at least.
I now go back to my original question. Just what exactly is your problem?
Oh, I've read your tag line. "If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off." Attitude problem. You been hurt so you take it out on the rest of the world.
Delicate little flower you are not.
I'll tell you what is sexist. The fact that if there were a woman with the footballing talent of Pele, George Best or Kevin Keegan, she would not be able to play 'top level' football. Simple as that - not allowed. That?s sexism.
That attitude just does not exist in caving. There was (I hope still is), a lady up north (Yorkshire?) who specialised in 'mega' solo trips, like the hardest, longest trips, but solo. Respect. Solo very mentally challenging as well as physically. There is nothing stopping you from caving at the very highest level. What other sport allows that? Yes, caving is male dominated, there are many reasons for that, which space and time prevent me from mentioning. What I think is common to all cavers, certainly all I have met, is an above average intelligence and an iron will you cross at your peril. When I say all cavers I mean all cavers, it includes all the female cavers I've met. By the rule of induction, it therefore includes you, so I'm saying you are intelligent, what is your problem?
Men are different to women, that which is different we necessarily treat differently. You have to live with that. Prejudice is learnt and comes later.
Most cavers are male that?s how it is. Cavers are closely related to miners, colliers, quarriers etc. I think by law (late 19th Century society was offended that women in e.g. South Wales worked underground bare chested because of the heat so they made the law to stop it happening) women are not allowed to work underground in coal industry at least. Do you think the male colliers were 'ogling the women hauling the drams? Like f were they, that was only in the minds of the Victorian 'elite'. Even now, well now if there were any collieries left, you work there with your butty eating showering crapping etc. with him. So there gets to be a culture where a lot of 'normal' social barriers get smashed to bits. This very much carries over to caving, a lot of cavers are or were miners, and except for the word 'work' cavers are like miners in their behaviour. They depend upon each other, shower together, get blind drunk together or not (is it true a caver is either 'alcoholic' or tea-total? kind of seems that way). So like what I'm saying is in caving you ain't going to be treated differently to a man. Maybe that?s your problem, you won't be treated any differently. Leave crap in a cave you can expect criticism, don't matter what it is. Put yourself in an amusing position, it don't matter if you male or female, you might hear 'tits out for the lads'.
Sexism don't exist in caving, cause caving in many ways is better than sex be it solo or in groups.
And the moral of all this? Don't antagonise a philosopher.
