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Duke Street and Eastern Front

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Does anyone know the original flow direction of this old trunk route?  Running from Duke Street 2 in Ireby, through Rift Pot and Large to the Eastern Front.  Was it in that direction and has it ever been comprehensively determined?  Thank you.
 
That's an excellent and interesting question.

I doubt anyone knows definitively but when the relevant chapter(s) in Part 2 of the BCRA Caves & Karst of the Yorkshire Dales book become available we should all gain a better understanding.

Meanwhile, does page 69 in ULSA Explorations Journal 1969 give a few partial clues? (This was before some of your subject matter was discovered but it does refer to the regional setting.)
 
Hi Badlad. I've often wondered where the Ierby water that flows into the Bolton extensions ad then into the rift sump is next seen. If at all. I know it's off topic but do you, or anybody else know?
 
I have always been led to believe that it comes out of the small rift in Ireby 2 just next to the upstream sump.  I'm not sure that it has ever been dye-traced but the water volumes seem the same.  I hear it was dived without success being too tight.
 
Interesting though not sure if relivant when I got caught in a flood in Ireby fell, the water was flowing up the railway in Ireby 2 tunnel the other way, i.e. from the sump in Ireby 1 / 2 and up the tunnel (past the outlet) towards the Notts sump. I guess it just overflowed? That's was how I knew the cave was flooding so I remember it well.
 
Does anyone know the original flow direction of this old trunk route? Running from Duke Street 2 in Ireby, through Rift Pot and Large to the Eastern Front. Was it in that direction and has it ever been comprehensively determined? Thank you.
IMG_1924.jpeg

Funnily enough I was looking up at Whirlpool crawl today and noticed these scallops showing the flow going down Duke Street in the same direction as the current stream. You should be able to get the flow direction from the sediment banks too, but I’ve never looked that closely.
 
View attachment 21069
Funnily enough I was looking up at Whirlpool crawl today and noticed these scallops showing the flow going down Duke Street in the same direction as the current stream. You should be able to get the flow direction from the sediment banks too, but I’ve never looked that closely.
Just to help orientate, where is the Irby Down Stream sump? To the left in the picture or to the right? Thanks
 
The flow marks in the photo do look quite convincing. In our discussions for the Leck Chapter in the 'bible', Waltham suggested that the places scallops were visible in Duke Street were in side or roof pockets and may only indicate turbulent flows - or something like that. Also the downcutting of the Easegill and Chapel le Dale valleys were at a similar time and rate. So flow could have gone either way or both ways even. Kingsdale cut down much later. The trunk route is phase one development so the landscape above would be very different to today. It would be a fine topic for a Phd I reckon.

What I have always found a mystery is what happens after Duke Street 2. The trunk route has to make some serious deviations from its otherwise linear path to jump over to Shuttleworth etc. Just as likely to continue straight out of the mountain.

Cheers for the photo
 
The flow marks in the photo do look quite convincing. In our discussions for the Leck Chapter in the 'bible', Waltham suggested that the places scallops were visible in Duke Street were in side or roof pockets and may only indicate turbulent flows - or something like that. Also the downcutting of the Easegill and Chapel le Dale valleys were at a similar time and rate. So flow could have gone either way or both ways even. Kingsdale cut down much later. The trunk route is phase one development so the landscape above would be very different to today. It would be a fine topic for a Phd I reckon.

What I have always found a mystery is what happens after Duke Street 2. The trunk route has to make some serious deviations from its otherwise linear path to jump over to Shuttleworth etc. Just as likely to continue straight out of the mountain.

Cheers for the photo
These scallops are across most of the width of the passage before the whirlpool roof pocket. I’d be pretty much certain that they show the flow direction rather than an eddy. I too would love to know where the passage goes after Duke Street 2. I seem to remember the scallops at the bottom of F’ing Hopeless suggested that the water was flowing ‘uphill’ there, so that could be consistent…
 
So the flow was east to west, according to those scallops at least - that right?
So from an ancient major sink in proto-Kingsdale then? (Before it was deepened by the Devensian ice advance?)
 
So the flow was east to west, according to those scallops at least - that right?
So from an ancient major sink in proto-Kingsdale then? (Before it was deepened by the Devensian ice advance?)
Yes, SE to NW to be a bit more precise. The scallops are pretty big (approx. 300mm). I assume that means the water was flowing (relatively slowly) in that direction for a considerable amount of time?

The source of the water is also completely unknown as far as I’m aware. It could be proto-Kingsdale, but Chapel le Dale and Ribblesdale are also possible? The cave beyond where the Eastern Front presumably exits the side of Kingsdale (completely filled by glacial debris) could have been completely eroded away.
 
Obviously all you knowledgeable types know this already, but remember that scallops in a phreatic passage only tell you the direction of the most recent flow. The majority of the passage could have been formed in a different direction.....
 
Obviously all you knowledgeable types know this already, but remember that scallops in a phreatic passage only tell you the direction of the most recent flow. The majority of the passage could have been formed in a different direction.....
Indeed. Knowledgeable types taking a closer look at the sediment banks should give another indication. The size of the passage and the size of the scallops do suggest that a considerable volume of water was flowing in that direction though (i.e. enough to form the passage).
 
Have a read of page 326, Caves and Karst of the Yorkshire Dales Vol2. That considers possible flow directions in more detail and the various stages of development. It concludes there is sparse and conflicting evidence on flow direction. As I said above, could have gone east, could have gone west or could have gone east and west at different times. Apparently it has been shown that flow in the Express Way, Dale Barn Illusion has switched direction, as an example.
 
Obviously all you knowledgeable types know this already, but remember that scallops in a phreatic passage only tell you the direction of the most recent flow. The majority of the passage could have been formed in a different direction.....
I remember Tony Waltham wasn't very happy about my conclusions about the direction of flow in the Exercise Yard 'cos it didn't fit his theories.
 
Have a read of page 326, Caves and Karst of the Yorkshire Dales Vol2. That considers possible flow directions in more detail and the various stages of development. It concludes there is sparse and conflicting evidence on flow direction. As I said above, could have gone east, could have gone west or could have gone east and west at different times. Apparently it has been shown that flow in the Express Way, Dale Barn Illusion has switched direction, as an example.
Thanks. I note that “Passage size may also give some indication of flow, in that the larger cross section of Eastern Front makes it likely to have lain downstream of the rather smaller Duke Street”.

Therefore, Duke Street 2 is also ‘likely’ to have lain downstream of the (considerably) smaller Duke Street. Maybe the passage did an about turn at the western end of Duke Street 2 😉
 
George said: "The source of the water is also completely unknown as far as I’m aware. It could be proto-Kingsdale, but Chapel le Dale and Ribblesdale are also possible? ".

I'm glad it's not just me that considers those possibilities. ;)

I also agree with Badlad that there really is an unfortunate scarcity of hard evidence.
 
George said: "The source of the water is also completely unknown as far as I’m aware. It could be proto-Kingsdale, but Chapel le Dale and Ribblesdale are also possible? ".

I'm glad it's not just me that considers those possibilities. ;)

I also agree with Badlad that there really is an unfortunate scarcity of hard evidence.
So... A dig in Ribblesdale and a few other places, come out at Top Sink in need of a cuppa? I like the idea
 
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