Flood Prone U.K.

[ian.p]

yes you rais a very good point i can only claim tirdness as an excuse weve resently lost several sheep to water logging on a farm i work for but it does seem a waste to get rid of all the water usualy at this time of year we cant get enogh water.      

 

[kay]

Why is it that they specifically need "economic migrants" and dont need indigenous people.....?

Suppose it's so they can pay them peanuts....

Now suppose they paid proper wages...
So fruit prices went up...
But wages were higher now...
So people could pay the higher fruit prices....

Balance is thus maintained, and the economy is sustainable, without turning the country into the Mexico of Europe....

...and you havent got to house all the economic migrants, so pressure on infrastructure, schools, NHS etc is reduced....

Yeah, but most of the people buying the fruit aren't the ones benefitting from the higher wages paid to fruit pickers, so they won't buy the new higher priced fruit, so the fruit grower will not make his profit, so he'll have to reduce his wages, so that they are attractive only to someone living in a country where the cost of living is lower than ours.

 

[Hughie]

yes you rais a very good point i can only claim tirdness as an excuse weve resently lost several sheep to water logging on a farm i work for but it does seem a waste to get rid of all the water usualy at this time of year we cant get enogh water.      

Usually we let water in from a higher level this time of year. Most bizarre weather. Sorry about your sheep.

 

[Hughie]

The level of wages is part of the problem, for sure, as it is the low salaries and the shit conditions that mean that teh Eastern Europeans won't come and do that work, but don't forget that employment levels generally in the UK are high; there is insufficient indigenous seasonal labour available.

I get the feeling that indigenous labour isn't particularly keen to do that sort of work. This may, of course, be a gross generalisation.

 

[wormster]

I get the feeling that indigenous labour isn't particularly keen to do that sort of work. This may, of course, be a gross generalisation.

Errr the missus works for a commercial tomato nursery in a very senior position, they use imported labour, as the locals DON'T want to work picking tomatoes in the glass. Imported labour is good because the toms get picked and the labour force has enough money to go back home and be set up for the rest of life with a  deposit for a house land etc.

economical miracle I should say so, fruit picked, house bought, job's a goodun. pity the locals can't be bothered to GET OFF THEIR ASSES AND GET A JOB.

 

[whitelackington]

Tap water starting to run out in Gloucestershire this evening

They are expecting Oxford to flood tonight, Reading tomorrow

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6910838.stm

Goverment "Does not rule out building new homes on flood plains" 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6911119.stm

 

[shotlighter]

Tap water starting to run out in Gloucestershire this evening

They are expecting Oxford to flood tonight, Reading tomorrow

Reading what?

 

[cap n chris]

...they use imported labour, as the locals DON'T want to work picking tomatoes in the glass...

Question: if the locals were to do the work could they afford a house on the wages? Or, put another way, surely the only local people likely to do the work are those who live at home with their parents and who therefore have some kind of accommodation which allows them to take on lowly paid employment - these people, however, are risking getting caught in a financial trap since the longer they work for low pay, the less likely it is that they will succeed in establishing their own independent lives with their own property etc.; put simply, it's not so much a lack of affordable housing, as a lack of remuneration. The foreign workers are happy to live in cramped basic accommodation (i.e. caravans) while they scrimp and save a small fortune which, when they return home, becomes a larger fortune. So, far from local people not being bothered to get off their arses, they are probably keen to work (as most people are) provided the wages won't mean they are forced to live in penury.

 

[graham]

...they use imported labour, as the locals DON'T want to work picking tomatoes in the glass...

Question: if the locals were to do the work could they afford a house on the wages? Or, put another way, surely the only local people likely to do the work are those who live at home with their parents and who therefore have some kind of accommodation which allows them to take on lowly paid employment - these people, however, are risking getting caught in a financial trap since the longer they work for low pay, the less likely it is that they will succeed in establishing their own independent lives with their own property etc.; put simply, it's not so much a lack of affordable housing, as a lack of remuneration. The foreign workers are happy to live in cramped basic accommodation (i.e. caravans) while they scrimp and save a small fortune which, when they return home, becomes a larger fortune. So, far from local people not being bothered to get off their arses, they are probably keen to work (as most people are) provided the wages won't mean they are forced to live in penury.

Except that there is evidence that the migrant workers are no longer prepared to put up with the poor conditions and poor wages.

 

[cap n chris]

... now we're all part of the same trading arena, that makes sense; after all, they have as much legal right to live and work in this country as we do - and vice versa for all those UKers working in Spain, Greece, Italy etc..

 

[Elaine]

...they use imported labour, as the locals DON'T want to work picking tomatoes in the glass...

Question: if the locals were to do the work could they afford a house on the wages? Or, put another way, surely the only local people likely to do the work are those who live at home with their parents and who therefore have some kind of accommodation which allows them to take on lowly paid employment - these people, however, are risking getting caught in a financial trap since the longer they work for low pay, the less likely it is that they will succeed in establishing their own independent lives with their own property etc.; put simply, it's not so much a lack of affordable housing, as a lack of remuneration. The foreign workers are happy to live in cramped basic accommodation (i.e. caravans) while they scrimp and save a small fortune which, when they return home, becomes a larger fortune. So, far from local people not being bothered to get off their arses, they are probably keen to work (as most people are) provided the wages won't mean they are forced to live in penury.

I know what you are saying, people want (need?) high rates of pay which are not in keeping with these low skilled jobs.
Also, we also have a benefit system which pays fairly well. In fact some are financially better off if they stay on benefits and have the free time than actually go out to work for a low wage.
So if people want to be able to buy a house and have a good lifestyle they need a high wage. Therefore there are not many who can or will do the low paid work - hence imported labour.

 

[AndyF]

Therefore there are not many who can or will do the low paid work - hence imported labour.

...but the reason it's low paid work is that there are people around willing to do it for low wages. If those people weren't around, the wages would rise for the same job. Its a supply/demand situation.

Does minimum wage not apply to fruit pickers....?

 

[AndyF]

This is why I'll not vote for the present government, as they are clearly total and utter idiots...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6911119.stm

 

[graham]

Therefore there are not many who can or will do the low paid work - hence imported labour.

...but the reason it's low paid work is that there are people around willing to do it for low wages. If those people weren't around, the wages would rise for the same job. Its a supply/demand situation.

Does minimum wage not apply to fruit pickers....?

It would do if the gangmasters involved didn't consider themselves above the law. See Morecambe bay cockle pickers for a high-profile comparison.

 

[AndyF]

It would do if the gangmasters involved didn't consider themselves above the law. See Morecambe bay cockle pickers for a high-profile comparison.

I think the law has changed since then, and there is now some sort of regulation... but it's 19th century method of working and needs to be brought into line with any other employment.

 

[whitelackington]

After The Black death, what Europe needed was workers, not solicitors, estate agents & accountants.
To a very much larger extent than before, ordinary workers could demand and receive much higher remunaration.
Also because 1/4 to  1/3 of the population had been wiped out,
there would have been adequate accomodation (for their time)
So to answer Anne's earlier point, yes, fewer people would be better.

 

[graham]

After The Black death, what Europe needed was workers, not solicitors, estate agents & accountants.
To a very much larger extent than before, ordinary workers could demand and receive much higher remunaration.
Also because 1/4 to  1/3 of the population had been wiped out,
there would have been adequate accomodation (for their time)
So to answer Anne's earlier point, yes, fewer people would be better.

So how do you intend to achieve this lowering of the UK population, while maintaining a sufficient demographic range to ensure no stagnation of economic activity?

 

[whitelackington]

Ah, therin lies the rub,
it could not be painless.
Maybe bird flu will do it for us :-\

 

[ian.p]

the problem with that idea is that whitelackingtons are just as suseptibal to plagues as everyone else and even if they wernt why should other people have to die to give you more room to breath?  

 

[Hughie]

but it's 19th century method of working and needs to be brought into line with any other employment.

Agree with this. Ultimately, the price of food will have to rise.

What do you mean by "any other employment"?  Not moaning about our lot in life at all, but Anne & I can conceivably work (when it's busy and not going well) 90hrs per week, before deducting meal/coffee breaks etc. 65 - 70hrs would be the norm.

So, to cut a long story short, if there's no cheap labour, ie a higher minimum wage, inflation will rise along with interest rates. Not nice for mortgages or the economy