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From the Archives
- Thread starter langcliffe
- Start date
If you could send me a copy, that would be much appreciatedDon't worry; I used to think similarly!
Langcliffe knows a great deal more about Cymmie than I do, as does Jenny Potts. Their opinions carry weight.
If you can't easily access that obituary I could send it to you?.
langcliffe
Well-known member
From the evidence that I have seen and that is now readily accessible online, 'malign' is not an inappropriate word. Be that as it may, Simpson's early surveys were, without doubt, works of art. Take this one of Lost Johns' Cave as an example. And he got the levels right which is more than can be said of Tony Waltham's otherwise splendid survey of the Leck Fell caves!
Obituaries tend reflect the positive sides of a person's life. For more objective appraisals of Cymmie as a person and his contribution to the BSA in particular, I recommend David Judson's "BCRA Cave Studies Series 3: Eli Simpson and the BSA", published by the BCRA in 2009. I also recommend Stephen Craven's "The British Speleological Association (1935-1973)" published in Caves and Karst Vol. 28 No. 3 in December 2001. It is available online in PDF format from the BCRA website.
langcliffe
Well-known member
If Eli Simpson had had his way, we would now have a blockhouse standing proudly over Lancaster Hole on Casterton Fell, that would rival anything to be found on Mendip. With 2'-thick reinforced walls and a steel door, it would repel the most rebellious of cavers.
https://archives.bcra.org.uk/archive.php?level=image&collection=bsa&document=ES034&item=82
https://archives.bcra.org.uk/archive.php?level=image&collection=bsa&document=ES034&item=82
wellyjen
Well-known member
No minefield? No watch towers and machine guns? I'd have given it a week before it was broken in to.
Samouse1
Well-known member
High anchor point to belay a rope to, a place to shelter from the wind and rain, what's not to love???
Oh right the lock....
I find it hard to forgive the way Simpson harvested formations from caves - something which is anathema now! In the 1930's he was doing it on an industrial scale with boxes filled with sawdust to prevent the stals getting broken as he took them out. You can read all about Simpson's doings in this line in Peter Binns' diaries for 1934 and 1935 as Simpson got Peter, then a schoolboy, to help. Peter's diaries are part of the BCRA Online Archives along with Simpson's own record books.
Peter mentions various caves where they took out stals and it wasn't just taking minor bits and pieces. He relates at one point how they had a problem with a 4 foot high stalagmite but eventually got it free because it was perched on a rock which came loose. Peter and his friend were also involved in taking stals from GG and he related how they hid what they were doing when another party came past. I think he was ashamed of this later in life but, as a schoolboy in 1934, he had been bedazzled by the "great man" and did what he was told. There are a number of photos taken of caves in the 1930s and '40s which show stals which are no longer there and these weren't accidentally knocked off - the best of them were being systematically taken. Simpson did have a huge collection of stals - so much so that it was suggested in 1947 by the BSA Chairman that they be offered to the Geological Museum. This collection seems to have disappeared later and certainly didn't go to the Geological Museum, so it's unclear what finally happened to all the items.
Peter Binns later came to know Simpson rather better when, as BSA's Assistant Treasurer, he complained he was unable to obtain Simpson's accounts for the 1946 BSA Winch Meet at GG - the amount involved seems to have been several hundred £££s. Peter, along with 7 others, were expelled from BSA in 1946 for daring to set up an organisation (CRG) which was devoted purely to cave science, did not own any tackle and did not attempt to dictate who was allowed to go down caves. Simpson was clearly delighted to get rid of someone who had become a thorn in his side! Peter went on to become CRG's Treasurer from its foundation until 1968 and was a bank manager, so I think he understood only too well what Simpson was doing.
Simpson was ill for much of his life as he had contracted malaria during his wartime service in the Middle East in WWI. Binns' diaries for 1934 and '35 make mention of "Mr. Simpson not being well enough ..." and collecting his medecine for him from his "housekeeper", Mrs. Elliot, when Simpson was living in Austwick.
Peter mentions various caves where they took out stals and it wasn't just taking minor bits and pieces. He relates at one point how they had a problem with a 4 foot high stalagmite but eventually got it free because it was perched on a rock which came loose. Peter and his friend were also involved in taking stals from GG and he related how they hid what they were doing when another party came past. I think he was ashamed of this later in life but, as a schoolboy in 1934, he had been bedazzled by the "great man" and did what he was told. There are a number of photos taken of caves in the 1930s and '40s which show stals which are no longer there and these weren't accidentally knocked off - the best of them were being systematically taken. Simpson did have a huge collection of stals - so much so that it was suggested in 1947 by the BSA Chairman that they be offered to the Geological Museum. This collection seems to have disappeared later and certainly didn't go to the Geological Museum, so it's unclear what finally happened to all the items.
Peter Binns later came to know Simpson rather better when, as BSA's Assistant Treasurer, he complained he was unable to obtain Simpson's accounts for the 1946 BSA Winch Meet at GG - the amount involved seems to have been several hundred £££s. Peter, along with 7 others, were expelled from BSA in 1946 for daring to set up an organisation (CRG) which was devoted purely to cave science, did not own any tackle and did not attempt to dictate who was allowed to go down caves. Simpson was clearly delighted to get rid of someone who had become a thorn in his side! Peter went on to become CRG's Treasurer from its foundation until 1968 and was a bank manager, so I think he understood only too well what Simpson was doing.
Simpson was ill for much of his life as he had contracted malaria during his wartime service in the Middle East in WWI. Binns' diaries for 1934 and '35 make mention of "Mr. Simpson not being well enough ..." and collecting his medecine for him from his "housekeeper", Mrs. Elliot, when Simpson was living in Austwick.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
I always thought that Cymmie genuinely (but misquidedly) believed his collecting of speleothems was for good scientific reasons. In the context of the very different pre-war attitude to cave conservation, perhaps this is a little more understandable.
Maybe he'd been guided by that list of necessary equipment which his predecessor Edouard Martel published which included a sledge hammer to smash the stalagmites?
Maybe he'd been guided by that list of necessary equipment which his predecessor Edouard Martel published which included a sledge hammer to smash the stalagmites?
JAA
Well-known member
I quite agree. I don’t think we need to introduce “cancel culture” into caving for historical acts which whilst odd to modern thinking where not considered that at the time.
langcliffe
Well-known member
1952
Personally I think anyone would be brough t up thinking breaking other peoples property is wrong. Just because a cave isn't owned by an obvious person I'd think this Cymmie would know it is wrong to take something not yours.
I appreciate I am of a different opinion to most though.
I appreciate I am of a different opinion to most though.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
No, that's fair comment I think.
You mention Leakey's efforts in conservation; I think it was called the "Cave Preservation Society". See: http://caving-library.org.uk/collections/bobleakey.shtml
The CPS was formed after the war, i.e. after the acme of Cymmie's active stal collecting period. (Cymmie died in 1962.) It makes me wonder if Leakey's conservation efforts were considerably influenced by Cymmie's attitude to his (perceived) justification for stal removal?
It also makes me wonder if it was part of the wider picture of a pendulum swing away from the BSA, bearing in mind that the great 1946 exodus (spawning two new major northern clubs) had taken place only a few years beforehand.
Thanks for giving us that date Langcliffe.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
As an aside, when speleothem dating really took off in the 1970s, for a time it was considered entirely justified to remove whole stalagmites from many of our favourite caves in the name of science. Nothing is entirely black and white and this demonstrates how popular opinion swings back and forth over the decades. As suggested above, view Cymmie's "crimes" in context.
(I was involved in a small way in developing a method of sample collection which didn't destroy the whole stalagmite several years ago, due to concerns about unnecessary damage; this is described in an edition of Cave & Karst Science somewhere, in a paper on how the Jockey's Cave stalagmite was dated in Ingleborough Cave.)
When I collected some flowstone samples for dating from deep underwater in Keld Head a few years ago, I first discussed this with leading cave scientists. I then acquired consent from Natural England. In this way, justification was confirmed as a result of a consensus of stakeholders. This seemed a sensible and measured way of going about such things.
Which reminds me - we still haven't got those deep Keld Head samples dated. If anyone involved in such work is interested in processing them, please do send a PM. My bet is they're post-Anglian but pre-Devensian (by a long way).
(I was involved in a small way in developing a method of sample collection which didn't destroy the whole stalagmite several years ago, due to concerns about unnecessary damage; this is described in an edition of Cave & Karst Science somewhere, in a paper on how the Jockey's Cave stalagmite was dated in Ingleborough Cave.)
When I collected some flowstone samples for dating from deep underwater in Keld Head a few years ago, I first discussed this with leading cave scientists. I then acquired consent from Natural England. In this way, justification was confirmed as a result of a consensus of stakeholders. This seemed a sensible and measured way of going about such things.
Which reminds me - we still haven't got those deep Keld Head samples dated. If anyone involved in such work is interested in processing them, please do send a PM. My bet is they're post-Anglian but pre-Devensian (by a long way).
langcliffe
Well-known member
I suspect that it was more influenced by the general desire (including Simpson's) to conserve Lancaster Hole and Ease Gill Caverns. The CPS papers are held in the BCA Library at Buxton, if anyone is really interested. I have read them, but I cannot remember the details.
