From the Archives

[Pitlamp]

Happen a bit of both?

 

[mikem]

Bob Leakey's letter / initial info about it is randomly in axbridge caving group folder from BSA, followed by some newspaper cuttings that include their decision to join:

BCRA Online Archive

British Cave Research Association - Online Historical Archive: The British Speleological Association Records

archives.bcra.org.uk

 

[langcliffe]

Bob Leakey's letter / initial info about it is randomly in axbridge caving group folder from BSA, followed by some newspaper cuttings that include their decision to join:

BCRA Online Archive

British Cave Research Association - Online Historical Archive: The British Speleological Association Records

archives.bcra.org.uk

That was well found!

I notice that this particular volume hasn't got a BCRA catalogue number, and is well out of place. The original cataloguing was done by Dave Judson, and up to the last few weeks, I have left well alone. However, I am currently going through the very tedious task of going through the BSA material, trying to reorganise bits of it to be more useful. Thus, I have split up a few volumes into more coherent entities, which has involved adjusting the cataloging.

Emboldened by that, I will assign a Mendip-related catalogue number to this volume, and move it to the Mendip section.

 

[mikem]

I wasn't looking for it, just happened to open folder to see what there was about Mendip shortly after reading above post...

 

[hannahb]

People who defend E Simpson's behaviour to a degree: what evidence is there that he was undertaking "science" on the stals he collected? Or that he was sending them somewhere to be analysed?

I wonder if he was just collecting them. Happy to be proved wrong.

 

[LadyMud]

what evidence is there that he was undertaking "science" on the stals he collected?

But that's exactly what "science" was, until relatively recently. Collecting fossils, collecting bird's eggs, collecting butterflies. The museums are full of these collections.

 

[hannahb]

But that's exactly what "science" was, until relatively recently. Collecting fossils, collecting bird's eggs, collecting butterflies. The museums are full of these collections.

Surely we would not now defend this kind of collecting, unless it was at least in part for identification, cataloguing, drawing, some kind of learning from.

What was being done with the stals?

 

[langcliffe]

I suspect that it was more influenced by the general desire (including Simpson's) to conserve Lancaster Hole and Ease Gill Caverns. The CPS papers are held in the BCA Library at Buxton, if anyone is really interested. I have read them, but I cannot remember the details.

I have found a substantial section in the BSA Records relating to the Cave Preservation Trust. It seems that Bob Leakey resigned from the B.S.A. primarily because Council declined to have anything to do with the C.P.T. and would not allow Bob to present his ideas to the members. It probably took this stance because Bob argued that the BSA's approach to its guardianship of Lancaster Hole should radically change. It will be remembered that the B.S.A. had taken a lease of the land at the entrance to Lancaster Hole, and severely restricted access, despite, by this time, other entrances to the system being available.

https://archives.bcra.org.uk/archive.php?level=image&collection=bsa&document=ES059&item=359 and following.

 

[mikem]

Surely we would not now defend this kind of collecting, unless it was at least in part for identification, cataloguing, drawing, some kind of learning from.

What was being done with the stals?

1937:"The Society now proposes to take over Cragdale, Settle, as its headquarters, and a museum will be formed to house photographs of underworld scenery, geological specimens, human and animal remains as well as other relics of cave man. A speleological library will also be formed and housed in the new headquarters."

British Speleological Society - Nature

ALTHOUGH the British Speleological Society has been in existence for a brief period only, having been formed at Derby two years ago, there is evidence that the organization has fulfilled its purpose and indeed has prospered exceedingly under the presidency of Sir Arthur Keith in the announcement...

www.nature.com

 

[langcliffe]

1937:"The Society now proposes to take over Cragdale, Settle, as its headquarters, and a museum will be formed to house photographs of underworld scenery, geological specimens, human and animal remains as well as other relics of cave man. A speleological library will also be formed and housed in the new headquarters."

British Speleological Society - Nature

ALTHOUGH the British Speleological Society has been in existence for a brief period only, having been formed at Derby two years ago, there is evidence that the organization has fulfilled its purpose and indeed has prospered exceedingly under the presidency of Sir Arthur Keith in the announcement...

www.nature.com

No mention of the free accommodation for Cymmie?

 

[JAA]

Surely we would not now defend this kind of collecting, unless it was at least in part for identification, cataloguing, drawing, some kind of learning from.

What was being done with the stals?

I don’t think anyone is defending it “now” ?

 

[Ian Ball]

But that's exactly what "science" was, until relatively recently. Collecting fossils, collecting bird's eggs, collecting butterflies. The museums are full of these collections.

How recently?

When was the scientific revolution, 16th century?

 

[ChrisB]

How recently?

Taking birds eggs as an example, the British Museum says:

In 1954 the Protection of Birds Act made egg collecting illegal in Britain, but before this, egg collecting had been a common hobby and thousands of specimens were in public and private collections. The Museum at Tring houses many of them.

The eggs are from all over the world, having been brought back to Britain by collectors and explorers of the eighteenth, nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Under licence, researchers still add to the collection today.

In the link, they say that the eggs they have, although now illegal to collect, are a valuable scientific resource.

In the 1930's many people genuinely believed that collecting rare specimens from nature was a contribution to science and collecting more common specimens was good scientific training for children. The world population was only about a quarter of what it is now and human impact on the world was much less.

 

[mikem]

Why the hobby of Butterfly collecting is over

Lepidoptery has changed with technology replacing the killing jar

www.independent.co.uk

 

[mikem]

No mention of the free accommodation for Cymmie?

It was normal for curators to be provided with accommodation back then as well - in lieu of getting a decent wage.

 

[langcliffe]

It was normal for curators to be provided with accommodation back then as well - in lieu of getting a decent wage.

The Trustees didn't think so!

 

[mikem]

Well, they normally didn't set themselves up in that position

 

[Ian Ball]

Taking birds eggs as an example, the British Museum says:

In the link, they say that the eggs they have, although now illegal to collect, are a valuable scientific resource.

In the 1930's many people genuinely believed that collecting rare specimens from nature was a contribution to science and collecting more common specimens was good scientific training for children. The world population was only about a quarter of what it is now and human impact on the world was much less.

Classic British Museum, take everything from everywhere else ;-)

In the case of bird egg collecting as it is now virtually nil and was in the -pre54 era a popular hobby, I would say the impact is less now.

 

[Ian Ball]

Although that does assume habitat has not shrunk which is I assume unlikely.

 

[mikem]

Bigger problem is that we've destroyed all the insects that they used to feed their chicks, so there are a lot fewer birds laying eggs. Common birds were doing fine back then despite the egg collecting - it was rarer species that were threatened