Giants Fatality
- Thread starter SamT
- Start date
D
DARBY
Guest
Hi Graham i dont thinks it is anything to do with trust but just worry about speculation that if you look at the other posts it seems to be creeping in and this is only going to cause problems. Nobody but the guys friends knew what went on that day, we can all say we would of done this or that but in circumstances unless being there none of us no nothing of the events that day. I feel with the dales incident it is just better being laid to rest and just try and move on. There are people on this site who supposebly command respect for their caving expertise some of the things i starting to hear on this topic from people who probably have no idea of this caves reaction to heavy water especially winter rainfall and weather.Lets just let it rest guys it has happened you cannot learn form something you do not have the total facts about.
graham
New member
How else to do learn except by speculating? Einstein used to call them "thought experiments".
Cavesherpa, if you take your attitude to its logical conclusion then the whole academic discipline of history might as well be dropped 'cos no historian ever has "the full facts" about anything.
I'm sorry if people think I'm going on about this, but I feel quite strongly about it.
Cavesherpa, if you take your attitude to its logical conclusion then the whole academic discipline of history might as well be dropped 'cos no historian ever has "the full facts" about anything.
I'm sorry if people think I'm going on about this, but I feel quite strongly about it.
bubba said:
With the passage of certain time and loss of press interest and the decision to unlock the tread, I had hoped that someone with >knowledge< of the incident could either privately or publicly disseminate some of the lessons that could perhaps be learnt.
If this is considered not possible then IMHO I would support such topics being locked on UKCAVING as nothing positive is likely to be gained.
I would very much support cave rescue organizations jointly issuing a half yearly ?lessons to be considered? notice, unattributed to any single incident. We seem to be missing a mechanism to quickly feed back any possible lessons into our community.
D
DARBY
Guest
Graham i totally understand where your coming from and genuinely believe these things should be discussed but it is not just us caver boys watching this forum we all know how misinterpreted information can knacker our sport, and lets face it we are struggling to get people into it at he moment. I understand about learning from a situation but in caving the chances of situation ever being the same is like winning the lottery. What we all need to do more is be more prepared for what can go wrong. We live now in a wetter more unpredictable environment and it is going to get worse. Sporting cave descents will become arduous technical trips and inevitably accidents will happen. Then we will all be back on here doing the same old thing and it will get us nowhere but back to the start.
graham
New member
Cavesherpa, I hear where you are coming from but I think that the fear of "others" reading things on here is being grossly exaggerated. Face it, the press don't need us in order to make vastly inaccurate statements about anything and, as I have already noted, anything said on here would be of no interest whatsoever in a court of law.
So who else are we frightened of?
And in that last post of yours you make pertinent points that I guess that other cavers will take more notice of in the context of this discussion.
So who else are we frightened of?
And in that last post of yours you make pertinent points that I guess that other cavers will take more notice of in the context of this discussion.
D
DARBY
Guest
Just to make light heart of the conversation Einstein as a caver, f*** me that would be scary
cap n chris
Well-known member
I guess it could be argued that it's the usual (same old, same old) lessons to be learned,... although they frequently seem forgotten, ignored or overlooked (although the year-on-year newcomers to caving are probably blissfully unaware of them, and the old hands are probably complacent):
* Hypothermia happens!
* You're more likely to encounter it in winter
* Especially if there's heavy weather
* Plan your trip accordingly (including reconsidering your objectives to suit the {lack of} fitness of the group)
* Quit while you're winning or abort the trip before it even begins!
* Hypothermia happens!
* You're more likely to encounter it in winter
* Especially if there's heavy weather
* Plan your trip accordingly (including reconsidering your objectives to suit the {lack of} fitness of the group)
* Quit while you're winning or abort the trip before it even begins!
D
DARBY
Guest
Hey up Graham, not mocking you mate what you say is logical, but journos are not.
Imagine this report ACTUAL 36 year old male suffers suspension trauma above the notorious event horizon in Britains biggest natural shaft TITAN Peak Cavern Derbyshire sadly loses is life.
Imagine this report FICTIONAL 36 year old male suffers brain injury as space shuttle hits him in the forehead whilst descending carlswark eyamdale shaft on is wife's suspender belt whilst mate is caught shoving an electronic rabbit up is arse.
Two totally different stories one could be true that's my point.
Imagine this report ACTUAL 36 year old male suffers suspension trauma above the notorious event horizon in Britains biggest natural shaft TITAN Peak Cavern Derbyshire sadly loses is life.
Imagine this report FICTIONAL 36 year old male suffers brain injury as space shuttle hits him in the forehead whilst descending carlswark eyamdale shaft on is wife's suspender belt whilst mate is caught shoving an electronic rabbit up is arse.
Two totally different stories one could be true that's my point.
D
DARBY
Guest
ABSOLUTELY SPOT ONcap 'n chris said:
D
DARBY
Guest
So how ABSURD is Yordas cave all of a sudden being the passage to Lower Long Cave where two experienced cavers died. Funny that word ABSURD may be i am fighting a more intelligent species Here.
Andy Sparrow
Active member
cavesherpa said:
We have more accurate weather forecasts than ever before. There is nothing inevitable about it. Flood rescues are almost invariably caused by human error.
D
DARBY
Guest
YOU WIN I SURRENDER ( to much cider to drink, if we meet underground one day lets have a pint but agree to disagree HAVE A GOOD NEW YEAR MATE ) All the best CHEERS.
Hughie
Active member
My twopen'orth, for what it's worth.
I think Graham is right - it seems most strange to not be able to sensitively discuss incidents such as these - with like minded people, on a forum such as this.
Perhaps a short period of time should elapse to allow notification of next of kin to take place. Following that I have no problem with sensible discussion - as others have said, there's always something to learn.
Journo's seem to write what they want (sometimes regardless of pre-presented fact) and I doubt they'd find much genuinely controversial in a sensible discussion anyway.
I think Graham is right - it seems most strange to not be able to sensitively discuss incidents such as these - with like minded people, on a forum such as this.
Perhaps a short period of time should elapse to allow notification of next of kin to take place. Following that I have no problem with sensible discussion - as others have said, there's always something to learn.
Journo's seem to write what they want (sometimes regardless of pre-presented fact) and I doubt they'd find much genuinely controversial in a sensible discussion anyway.
We do? :-\ even if they ARE more accurate I wouldn't trust them entirely and I don't think anyone should base a trip purely on a "forecast".
Agreed.
Winning, surrending? Eh.. It's only a forum where everyone has their own views and thoughts - nobody is a winner or a loser we just argue until people can't be arsed no more it's not about winning and losing - or am I a loser for thinking like this?
Please permit a small comment from an armchair caver living a long way from any caves on this topic.
I regularly follow a professional aviation forum where there are sometimes accidents reported and discussed which involve multiple fatalities and where post-event investigations are subject to various regulatory regimes and where there is a significant risk is of substantial compensation having to be paid to surviving relatives. From what I have seen there the following happens:
1. A link is posted to a conventional media source
2. People with (generally) relevant professional experience comment on the circumstances (with victims identities protected as long as possible)
3. The media finds the forum and quote directly from the responses made at 2. above to ensure more copy is published. Eventually media looses interest
4. Debate rumbles on - moderators delete the more inane comments and incorrect assumptions are rigorously challenged by experienced participants
5. Eventually the accident investigation report is published (sometimes years later) and the discussion begins again.
For an example see http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=302525
This approach seems to produce an acceptable level of discussion and dissemination of lessons learned type information whilst the formal investigations are ongoing.
It is also worth noting that the forum has this warning:
"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions." But I think that most people here are aware of this...
I regularly follow a professional aviation forum where there are sometimes accidents reported and discussed which involve multiple fatalities and where post-event investigations are subject to various regulatory regimes and where there is a significant risk is of substantial compensation having to be paid to surviving relatives. From what I have seen there the following happens:
1. A link is posted to a conventional media source
2. People with (generally) relevant professional experience comment on the circumstances (with victims identities protected as long as possible)
3. The media finds the forum and quote directly from the responses made at 2. above to ensure more copy is published. Eventually media looses interest
4. Debate rumbles on - moderators delete the more inane comments and incorrect assumptions are rigorously challenged by experienced participants
5. Eventually the accident investigation report is published (sometimes years later) and the discussion begins again.
For an example see http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=302525
This approach seems to produce an acceptable level of discussion and dissemination of lessons learned type information whilst the formal investigations are ongoing.
It is also worth noting that the forum has this warning:
"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions." But I think that most people here are aware of this...
Andy Sparrow
Active member
The only safe way to cave in this flood prone country is to scrutinise a weather forecast. No, they are not always accurate and I have cancelled numerous trips which, it turned out, would have been ok, but better that than the other way round. It works for me - nearly 40 years of caving without a flood rescue. What should we 'base' our trips on if not the best info the met office and a billion dollars worth of satellite can provide?dunc said:
