Giants Hole "access Fee" Increase

[Hughie]

[ You could argue that ?3 is for parking and maintaining the track/parking area - but it's a per-person fee rather than a vehicle/parking fee. I doubt maintenance costs are that high and I'll take a wild guess here that non of the money actually goes towards looking after the cave in anyway..

Why should the landowner provide you with parking? Surely that's a gesture of goodwill on his part.
Why should he spend money looking after the cave? - the cheapest way to look after it would be to gate and close it.

So, if that were the case, instead of you lot whining on about having to cough-up ?3, you would all be jolly happy because you've saved ?2. Good deal?.........Not.

Goodwill fees are just that. To maintain goodwill.

If the landowner wanted to run it in a commercial manner, the fees would be considerably more.

 

[Mark]

02/02/02 Rescue,

06/05/03 Rescue,

20/12/03 Rescue,

12/05/04Rescue,

02/05/04 Rescue,

20/08/07 Rescue,

02/12/07 Rescue,

Loads of vehicles churning up fields, helicopters disrupting stock,
I know when the 3 rescues in quick succession occured the changing area was a quagmire, with vehicles sliding all over the place to get out

Not to mention discarded underwear socks etc every week,

At the end of day whats in it or the farmer?

 

[dunc]

I know when the 3 rescues in quick succession occured the changing area was a quagmire, with vehicles sliding all over the place to get out

So money doesn't go to maintaining the area, good reason for everyone to stop going to help conserve the area and prevent further erosion!

Why should the landowner provide you with parking? Surely that's a gesture of goodwill on his part.

I'll find somewhere else to park and walk to the cave, do I get a reduction, probably not.

Goodwill fees are just that. To maintain goodwill.

Indeed, but ?3 per person strikes me as money making and not just a case of maintaining goodwill..

A ?1 increase is hardly going to break the bank is it.

A ?1 here and other farmers see everyone willing to cough up, then more increases at other sites, more ?s we have to cough up....

 

[Mark]

It costs about a fiver (per person) a night to lay down in a field (supply your own tent etc) round here,
I suppose thats some money grabbing farmer taking advantage too

 

[dunc]

Is that just a pitch and no facilities like toilet/water? You could wild camp for free instead and get the same facilities!!

 

[kay]

A ?1 increase is hardly going to break the bank is it.

A ?1 here and other farmers see everyone willing to cough up, then more increases at other sites, more ?s we have to cough up....

... and the more likely other landowners are going to be to let people keep coming to the caves rather than simply dumping a couple of truckloads of rubbish down the entrance and stopping anyone wanting to go there.

 

[phil.gregson]

I really don't understand you lot!

Its his private land and, on which he is fortunate enough to have a useful resource.  Why shouldn't he make something out of it - that's farming!  If you don't want to pay it then don't go! If enough people think its not worth it then he won't make any money, but I suspect that's not the case.

I've not been to Giants for many years but I always remember people leaving litter, knocking walls down, parking in the way and whingeing about everything - If I was him I'd have shut it up and let non of the ignorant buggers in - it seemed more hassle than it was worth!!

Incidentally, I was thinking of starting a major digging project at the time and discussed with him the situation regarding fees (?2.00 at the time) and he was more than happy to be lenient with them for a serious project - its not all about greed.

I can't be arsed to check but I wonder how many of the people who are whingeing in this topic about someone else charging for something where probably some of the same people who were insisting it was unreasonable to be asked to provide something for nothing in a recent topic on photography?

Some of you need to crawl out from your caves get out in the real world a bit more!!

Phil

 

[Mark]

I really don't understand you lot!

Its his private land and, on which he is fortunate enough to have a useful resource.  Why shouldn't he make something out of it - that's farming!  If you don't want to pay it then don't go! If enough people think its not worth it then he won't make any money, but I suspect that's not the case.

I've not been to Giants for many years but I always remember people leaving litter, knocking walls down, parking in the way and whingeing about everything - If I was him I'd have shut it up and let non of the ignorant buggers in - it seemed more hassle than it was worth!!

Incidentally, I was thinking of starting a major digging project at the time and discussed with him the situation regarding fees (?2.00 at the time) and he was more than happy to be lenient with them for a serious project - its not all about greed.

I can't be arsed to check but I wonder how many of the people who are whingeing in this topic about someone else charging for something where probably some of the same people who were insisting it was unreasonable to be asked to provide something for nothing in a recent topic on photography?

Some of you need to crawl out from your caves get out in the real world a bit more!!

Phil

Well said Phil

 

[graham]

....but ?3 per person strikes me as money making and not just a case of maintaining goodwill....

Shock horror, man who owns resource wishes payment from those wishing to use it. 

 

[cap n chris]

Cavers will often moan at stuff. Any stuff.

Goodwill fee(s) and their enormity being one such example.

 

[slippery_matt]

Perhaps he's thinking of people's health, with all that Radon down there 'n' all  :alien:

 

[Pete K]

I don't think that this will ever get resolved to everyone's satisfaction. A small increase of a pound is easy for a personal caver to cover. The increase in fees for a centre group has to be justified to the accountants and pen pushers, and if a cheeper alternatives exist, then that will then become preferential, even if it is a poorer venue. It is the clients that will loose out, to the detriment of the sport and all future cavers.
Having run intro caving courses for a while now, it is always Giants that gets people inspired and never Carlswark.

The increase has happened and won't be the last. We'll all have to wait and see what happens in the future.

 

[phil.gregson]

There's a plan!

Radon can't be cheap - whilst your down, those of you who haven't wrecked your lung capacity with years of roll-ups, make sure you suck in a good 3 quids worth!

Everyone's a winner!!

If you are really good you could suck in ?4.00 worth and come out on top of the deal.

Phil

 

[phil.gregson]

it is always Giants that gets people inspired and never Carlswark.

Can't argue with that!!

I first went caving with Witehall ** years ago (crikey - that long ago!!) and went down Carlswalk - At the time I declared it to be utterly squalid and unpleasant and vowed never to go again.  Fortunately I next went caving, again with Whitehall, down Giants and was hooked for life!!

That said I really don't follow the argument that it is ok for everyone else in the chain to make money from commercial caving, except the owner of the cave!!

Why doesn't the garage give diesel to them for free?  Why doesn't Ford give 'em a transit for free?  Why doesn't the government give 'em road tax for free? Why don't the equipment suppliers give 'em gear for free? (I'm not going to have a go at instructors as as far as I know a lot of them do it for next to sod-all!)

Phil

 

[Armchair]

Radon daughters do it for nowt!

 

[graham]

That said I really don't follow the argument that it is ok for everyone else in the chain to make money from commercial caving, except the owner of the cave!!

Why doesn't the garage give diesel to them for free?  Why doesn't Ford give 'em a transit for free?  Why doesn't the government give 'em road tax for free? Why don't the equipment suppliers give 'em gear for free? (I'm not going to have a go at instructors as as far as I know a lot of them do it for next to sod-all!)

Phil

Dunno, just as long as they can get the cave photographers to hand over their photos for free ...

 

[phil.gregson]

I was waiting for that!!

One Giants - thousands of people photographing it!!

Supply and demand.

Phil

 

[graham]

I was waiting for that!!

I hate to see someone go away disappointed.  8)

 

[Big Jim]

To anyone who thinks a quid increase is taking the piss, then I for one dont ever want to go down the pub with you, you tight gits.  Its 3 friggin quid for god sake. 3 friggin quid!  Dear oh dear.

I will pay the extra quid for any individual who goes this month (and I earn f*** all as a ranger).  PM me if you want the quid. (I will publish list of names under title "Tight C***s" of those who ask for the quid)

 

[phil.gregson]

In addition, Graham,

The people providing photographs for free were recieving a form of reward sufficient for them - i.e. the publication of their work.

The only reward a farmer is getting for free land access is the dubious pleasure of having to re-build all his walls!

Phil