Idiots

[Rhys]

Seriously now, it's almost certain that the gates were not taken for scrap! The relatively small amount of metal and the the inaccessible locations really rules this out (for Ogof Draenen particularly - if you've ever been there and walked back up that hill, you'll understand why!). Forget scrap theft as a possible explanation.

 

[SpeleoTrog]

If the gates have been removed (stolen) without the owners' consent then a theft has taken place

Not strictly true, sorry Peter. The fact the gates have been removed does not automatically make it theft. It could be a number of other offences or even not a crime at all. Removed without consent and Stolen are actually 2 very different offences

 

[Peter Burgess]

If the gates have been removed (stolen) without the owners' consent then a theft has taken place

Not strictly true, sorry Peter. The fact the gates have been removed does not automatically make it theft. It could be a number of other offences or even not a crime at all. Removed without consent and Stolen are actually 2 very different offences

I don't think this thread is the place for pedancy. We all know deep inside that if the gates have been taken away without the authority of the owner, lessee, occupier or whatever other body has the authority to claim "ownership" of the gates, then someone has been a very naughty boy (or girl), and should face the proper consequences of their actions.

 

[SpeleoTrog]

Nor is it the place for unfounded speculation. The investigation will determine whether or not any criminal offence has taken place. I'll accept that it is probable that someone has taken them without consent but that still does not mean it's theft or even a crime. Lets wait and see what, if anything, comes out of the investigation.

 

[graham]

Nor is it the place for unfounded speculation. The investigation will determine whether or not any criminal offence has taken place. I'll accept that it is probable that someone has taken them without consent but that still does not mean it's theft or even a crime. Lets wait and see what, if anything, comes out of the investigation.

I'm interested. If I came along and removed your front door without your consent, how would it not be a crime?

 

[SpeleoTrog]

There's no need to go into details on here but there's some key wording in the Theft Act which has to apply for it to be Theft. If it's not theft, it's quite possible that it then becomes a civil offence, not a criminal one. As I said, until we know more details it's probably best to let the enquiries carry one un-muddied by the usual forum speculations and accusations.

 

[graham]

There's no need to go into details on here but there's some key wording in the Theft Act which has to apply for it to be Theft. If it's not theft, it's quite possible that it then becomes a civil offence, not a criminal one. As I said, until we know more details it's probably best to let the enquiries carry one un-muddied by the usual forum speculations and accusations.

I didn't mention theft in that post, old son, I said "How would it not be a crime?" I can think of several from theft through criminal damage and onwards.

 

[Brains]

Taking without consent is different to theft.
An intent to permanently deprive is part of the proof for theft.
This is a complex area where only lawyers get rich.
It is also I suspect off topic...

We have all formed our opinions of what happened, and why.
How prepared are we to change our minds as a result of future events and evidence?
What long term consequences might there be for the practice of controlling access with gates requiring keys here or elsewhere?
Gates have been targeted before, and no doubt will be again, but complete removal is as far as I know unique, so far.
Gates have also been protected by potentially lethal booby traps.

As a caving community, how do we wish to proceed?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Nor is it the place for unfounded speculation. The investigation will determine whether or not any criminal offence has taken place. I'll accept that it is probable that someone has taken them without consent but that still does not mean it's theft or even a crime. Lets wait and see what, if anything, comes out of the investigation.

The speculation is well-founded - founded on the report that the gates are no longer there.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I predict that parties will become more, and not less, entrenched. If my front door disappeared I am not going to say "Let's not bother to replace it", and would most likely make the new one less prone to being removed. It's human nature. That's why removing them was a stupid thing to do. I suspect even most of those opposed to the gates would say the same thing.

 

[SpeleoTrog]

The speculation is well-founded - founded on the report that the gates are no longer there.

That being the only known fact. Anything else is pure speculation.

 

[Peter Burgess]

... which you qualified with the word "unfounded". Now I'm being pedantic!

 

[graham]

The speculation is well-founded - founded on the report that the gates are no longer there.

That being the only known fact. Anything else is pure speculation.

Is it "pure speculation" to comment on the fact that, as an investigation has been launched that the removal took place without the knowledge or consent of the landowner?

 

[Brains]

I predict that parties will become more, and not less, entrenched. If my front door disappeared I am not going to say "Let's not bother to replace it", and would most likely make the new one less prone to being removed. It's human nature. That's why removing them was a stupid thing to do. I suspect even most of those opposed to the gates would say the same thing.

I agree with you.
If it was the door to my house I would expect a different response than if it was to a hole in my land...

 

[SpeleoTrog]

Peter / Graham

I'm not arguing the fact that (assuming theft for scrap value is ruled out) removing the gates would appear to be a particularly stupid thing to do. My point was that it is unhelpful, with an enquiry going on, to speculate in public. We don't know that it was a theft, we don't even know if a crime has been committed (in the technical, legal, sense even if we all agree that, morally it has). It's up to the guys running the investigation to establish those facts, so let's leave that side of it to them.

Sensible discussions as to what we, as a community can do to help stop it happening again are a different matter entirely. Personally I'd suggest that, once identified, the culprits should visit each caving club in the UK for a ritual flogging!

 

[Peter Burgess]

JessopSmythe

I am not trying to encourage an online enquiry, but trying to bring some reality into the world.

1. Suggesting it was scrap collecting, although remotely possible, is quite honestly a laughable suggestion.

2. The implication that it if wasn't a crime that sort of makes it all right is also laughable.

You are quite right to say that the proper investigation is done by those properly employed to do such things.

However, there is nothing wrong with sensible speculation. To prevent this from happening is unnecesary censorship. Unhelpful speculation is that which starts pointing the finger at specific individuals or groups. If that were to happen, I trust the mods would do the proper thing.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Perhaps we should bear in mind that the perpetrators are quite possibly reading what is posted here - probably an important consideration!  :doubt:

 

[shortscotsman]

Gates have been targeted before, and no doubt will be again, but complete removal is as far as I know unique, so far.

I thought the gate of Ogof Craig Y Fynnon had been completely removed in the past. [It's mentioned in Martin Farr's "Darkworld"].    It sounds like the police were not very interested in investigating the removal then.  My own experience
is that it takes a lot of pushing to get the police interested if they don't view it as particularly relevent. 

Whatever the details,  it seems unlikely to improve access in the future -has anyone heard whether permitted access is possible at present?
 

 

[Ian Adams]

Gates have been targeted before, and no doubt will be again, but complete removal is as far as I know unique, so far.


As a caving community, how do we wish to proceed?

You haven't been to North Wales then Brains ?

"As a caving community" <<we>> either listen, take on board and accomodate (so far as reasonably possible) the views and wishes of "the caving community" (and perhaps beyond) or we suffer at the hands of those who feel aggrieved (assuming it wasn't scrap metal cowboys).

The Draenan saga now mirrors a lot of North Wales skullduggery, something which I went to great pains to explain might happen at the outset and hoped to avoid.

Most importantly, I think we all have to understand and accept that we are all "human beings" and we will (generally) all act and behave as "human beings" do.

I hope the police in South Wales are better focused than the ones here in North Wales. It seems "we" (caving community) couldn't get an issue with a lid sorted here but a police seargent set about the arrest and prosecution of two diggers for removing "silt" from a cave even though they had been doing so for 10-15 years with the landowners consent after the CCW scheduled it SSSI without telling them.

Off topic?  No .... the solution is (in my opinion) recognising that we are all human beings and that we all act and behave as such with all the selflessness and selfishness that comes with being human.

Ian

 

[Peter Burgess]

Ian, are you an apologist for wrong-doers?