Idiots

[Ian Adams]

Ian, are you an apologist for wrong-doers?

Interesting interpretation of what I had written (has to be my fault as the author).

In short, "no".

Without being pedantic (an issue you raised earlier), I think you have to consider who is/are the "wrong-do'ers".  Clearly the PDCMG will see themselves as victims in this incident (and assuming they own the gates as I suspect they do) then clearly they are. However, I suspect the perpetrators also considered themselves to be victims. Assuming I am right in thinking what I believe everyone else is thinking (and hasn't said) "they" (the perpetrators) may be feeling aggrieved to such an extent that they have taken the law into their own hands. (Something that humans do (rightly or wrongly)).


And ... no, I don't believe two wrongs make a right.

I was only offering a possible solution as mooted by Brains.

Ian

 

[Peter Burgess]

Ian, are you an apologist for wrong-doers?

Interesting interpretation of what I had written (has to be my fault as the author).

In short, "no".

Without being pedantic (an issue you raised earlier), I think you have to consider who is/are the "wrong-do'ers".  Clearly the PDCMG will see themselves as victims in this incident (and assuming they own the gates as I suspect they do) then clearly they are. However, I suspect the perpetrators also considered themselves to be victims. Assuming I am right in thinking what I believe everyone else is thinking (and hasn't said) "they" (the perpetrators) may be feeling aggrieved to such an extent that they have taken the law into their own hands. (Something that humans do (rightly or wrongly)).


And ... no, I don't believe two wrongs make a right.

I was only offering a possible solution as mooted by Brains.

Ian

Brains asked a few questions. I don't think he was offering a solution. Thank you for clarifying that you do not condone what seems to have happened. There is nothing to be gained by giving idiots an excuse for what they have done.

 

[Ian Adams]

Brains did indeed ask a number of questions and it was his last one ?As a caving community, how do we wish to proceed?? that I was suggesting a pragmatic solution to.

I certainly wasn?t trying to give the impression that I was excusing what had happened (again, my fault as the author of my words). What I was trying to address a way forward to prevent it happening again.



Ian

 

[PMN1]

Messages have gone out to key holders, but why would you need a key to remove the gate?

 

[Pitlamp]

Brains - complete removal of gates has happened many times before. Read, for example, about the early days of Lancaster Hole, Eli Simpson and the refugee upstarts from the BSA.

(The above is only intended as a statemement of fact - please don't get the idea I'm supporting the actions of opinions of anyone involved in the incident presently under discussion.)

 

[Rhys]

Messages have gone out to key holders, but why would you need a key to remove the gate?

Paul

Perhaps the physical evidence suggests that the gate was open when removed. The padlock may've been broken off first though, of course. I guess they'd just like to rule out the use of any of the keys if possible.

Rhys

 

[Les W]

I guess it is also possible that the gates were fixed on the inside, so it was necessary to open them to access the fixings.

Just a thought, I don't know though.

 

[Brains]

Brains - complete removal of gates has happened many times before. Read, for example, about the early days of Lancaster Hole, Eli Simpson and the refugee upstarts from the BSA.

(The above is only intended as a statemement of fact - please don't get the idea I'm supporting the actions of opinions of anyone involved in the incident presently under discussion.)

Thanks for the clarification, I thought they had just been forced. The tales of hollow bolts used for easy entry had misled me.

Jackalpup, I have caved and mine explored in N Wales and the politics and gating protocols leave a lot to be desired.

I would prefer an attitude similar to that found in the Peak or the greater Ingleton area of generally open access and gates for safety not security. I appreciate this paradigm doesnt translate well to the Mendip or S Wales, where local circumstances and history have led to a much more pro-control/gate attitude.

For the topic in hand, unilateral and probably illegal actions cannot be condoned. I do not defend these actions.
Why did the perps feel the need to act in such a way?
As an outsider, divisive, entrenched and polarised attitudes appear to be contributary factors.

Perhaps the best resolution might be a '68 style deluge re-opening some of the no doubt numerous naturally blocked potential entrances, rendering this whole issue obsolete?

 

[Ship-badger]

I thought tht the whole Draenen issue had gone ominously quiet; and I was never of the impression that those in favour of multiple entrances would simply give up and go away. I thought it would simply be Araldite in the locks though.

We had a gate completely torn off at Wigpool iron mine a few years ago.

I'm not saying that this will help matters at all, but I could see something coming, I just didn't expect this. 

 

[AndyF]

Sounds like a good time to do the through trip...

You may not get another opportunity in your entire lifetime is some cavers have their way... 

 

[Damo]

Strangely enough i have just seen 2 gates for sale on Flea bay. Take a look.

 

[stevejw]

Perhaps a link req. Quite a few for sale.

 

[shortscotsman]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270609285425#ht_500wt_1154

 

[Maisie Syntax]

Shouldn't we have had the comment "And there they were - gone!" somewhere on this thread by now?

See also - Nice shoes them boots etc etc.

It would appear that the e-bay-gum seller has moved to a smaller house and needs to sell some of his gates.

 

[Les W]

It would appear that the e-bay-gum seller has moved to a smaller house and needs to sell some of his gates.

:bow: :bow: :bow:

 

[NameOfTheDragon]

a serious question - what are the gates made of - and what is thier weight ?

i hope this is nothing to do with cavers / politics - but rather another chapter in the rampage of metal thieves accross the country

virtualy any metal is now seen as a target for some people

The Draenen gate is exactly the same design as the OFD gates, it was specifically designed that way so that replacements would be readily available should it become necessary. The gate can only be removed from the inside once it is open. It is quite a heavy item and would not be easy to transport up the slope.

Note that visitors to the cave are still required to carry a key as proof to the landowner that they have appropriate permissions.

 

[NameOfTheDragon]

Gates have been targeted before, and no doubt will be again, but complete removal is as far as I know unique, so far.

I thought the gate of Ogof Craig Y Fynnon had been completely removed in the past. [It's mentioned in Martin Farr's "Darkworld"].    It sounds like the police were not very interested in investigating the removal then.  My own experience
is that it takes a lot of pushing to get the police interested if they don't view it as particularly relevent. 

Whatever the details,  it seems unlikely to improve access in the future -has anyone heard whether permitted access is possible at present?

I believe the landowner is still allowing access provided all visitors carry a key as proof that they have the appropriate permissions. You should verify this with the PDCMG permit secretary before visiting as events are unfolding daily.

 

[Hughie]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270609285425#ht_500wt_1154

Had to have a "slightly facetious chuckle" (software won't let me write s-n-i-g-g-e-r!!!) at the description - rusty aluminium!!! Still - a snip at 99p (aluminium at ?900/tonne) .

 

[ChrisJC]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270609285425#ht_500wt_1154

Good work Tony 

If I were the landowner and the alleged incident happened, I would send somebody down there with a wheelbarrow of Dr. Nobels linctus, and that would be the end of that. In fact, I hope they do just that, to focus the minds of all involved.

Chris.

 

[Bob Smith]

here is one of the questions asked on the eBay auction

Q:  I have recently moved to a larger house and require something to fill all the avaiable space, would these be suitable, if not do you have anything else the would do the trick?
A:  These gates are quite small, about 2 feet square. I live in a very small house and I have a lot of books. They are piled up in boxes. To get to the kitchen is quite a squeeze, beneath a ton of book. You are welcome to buy some of these books. I am putting them on fleabay, but it is a slow job.