Peter Burgess
New member
Agreed. Your rubbish is normally posted in a number of places where your rants might not go unchallenged, but they are tolerated. Please learn where the boundary lies, Mick.kay said:
If you're not in a club, you're not a bona fide caver!
- Thread starter cap n chris
- Start date
Goydenman
Well-known member
Wrong - I spent time when I first started caving going on courses at Wherside Manor as was at that time with a mate, bought a guide book and enjoyed exploring the caves in my area. Applied to join caving club and was told too young! So ignored club scene carried on learning, exploring and got into digging. Then when I found something desent was told you can join now! Regarded myself as bona fide caver even though I was not in a club and still would potentially for anyone else not in a club. Clubs can help develop caves and cavers and somtimes do the opposite.
As for 'bona fide caver' - I guess I want and want other cavers to have three basics - some experience that has shown they haved caved and in so doing do not endanger others doing it; willingness to learn i.e. try and update themselves not just technically but to the 'community values' of cavers since these alter over time eg with regard attitude to conservation and to prelating to press etc finally they open up opportunties to other present cavers and future ones. i.e. digging -opening up caves for others to explore, conserving them so future generations enjoy them, studying caves so others know about them, introducing people to caving and so on and on.
Just because someone I have got access to several cave related things without 'bona fide credentials of being in a club' such as to training at the National centre; access to Peak Cavern; entry onto the Rescue team; digging on farmers land; submitting articles to the national magazine. They all found ways to get 'evidence' of me being a bona-fide caver.
As for 'bona fide caver' - I guess I want and want other cavers to have three basics - some experience that has shown they haved caved and in so doing do not endanger others doing it; willingness to learn i.e. try and update themselves not just technically but to the 'community values' of cavers since these alter over time eg with regard attitude to conservation and to prelating to press etc finally they open up opportunties to other present cavers and future ones. i.e. digging -opening up caves for others to explore, conserving them so future generations enjoy them, studying caves so others know about them, introducing people to caving and so on and on.
Just because someone I have got access to several cave related things without 'bona fide credentials of being in a club' such as to training at the National centre; access to Peak Cavern; entry onto the Rescue team; digging on farmers land; submitting articles to the national magazine. They all found ways to get 'evidence' of me being a bona-fide caver.
Slug
Member
SamT said:
I think He looks more like an Orc,
( sorry Carm :spankHe has, however, thrown up an interesting point to discuss. I know of at least 1 caver who chose to leave the Club option, and strike out on His own. He still actively Caves, Still dig's, and is quite proud of His B.C.A. status as a Dick...................sorry B**, D.I.C. ( Direct Individual Caver )
Clubs can offer a lot of benefits, especially accommodation if ,like me you don't happen to live even remotely near a caving area, or access arrangements with landowners etc., but it isn't for everybody, it is, and always should be down to personal choice. Either way, they're still cavers.
(Cue link from Mick about how Gordon Brown is about to outlaw individualism in sport/life/the whole Universe
.)
cap n chris
Well-known member
Aha, I think you mean a Cartilaginous Caver? Something akin to a shark*, then?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cartilaginous
* They have no bones, just cartilage.
_______
And, no, I'm not really trolling on this one; it's just another definition/interpretation issue relating to access - on the surface it seems like an innocent, easily understandable and reasonable expression but is perhaps open to a variety of interpretations depending on viewpoint etc..
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cartilaginous
* They have no bones, just cartilage.
_______
And, no, I'm not really trolling on this one; it's just another definition/interpretation issue relating to access - on the surface it seems like an innocent, easily understandable and reasonable expression but is perhaps open to a variety of interpretations depending on viewpoint etc..
Peter Burgess
New member
I wonder how many access procedures which include this phrase are so-worded for one of two primary reasons:
a) To show a landowner that you are using some kind of assessment to keep out the irresponsible.
b) To give the access body the power to deny access to anybody/any group they don't like the look/sound of, on a very arbitrary and unscientific basis.
My guess is the former is the most likely, but in practice the vast majority if not all those requesting access are granted permission, if only because they are trustworthy people.
a) To show a landowner that you are using some kind of assessment to keep out the irresponsible.
b) To give the access body the power to deny access to anybody/any group they don't like the look/sound of, on a very arbitrary and unscientific basis.
My guess is the former is the most likely, but in practice the vast majority if not all those requesting access are granted permission, if only because they are trustworthy people.
jasonbirder
Member
What on earth has being in a club got to do with being a bona fide Caver (whatever that means...)
Surely...if you cave...you're a bona fide (genuine) caver...
What other criteria can there be?
Surely...if you cave...you're a bona fide (genuine) caver...
What other criteria can there be?
cap n chris
Well-known member
jasonbirder said:
Not entirely convinced by this.
If the premise is logically correct then.... If I drive a racing car that makes me a bona fide (genuine) racing driver!
I'm gonna go for Peter's (b) option.
Peter Burgess
New member
Is this anything to do with professional cavers (ergo non-club cavers) trying to gain access to a cave where a club permit is required? :-\
jasonbirder
Member
Yes...surely if you have a racing car and drive it in races then YOU ARE a racing car driver...
What else could you be?
What else could you be?
ian mckenzie
New member
Belonging to a caving club allows social and intellectual : interactions which IMHO improves the overall enjoyment of and level of involvement in the sport. It is more a reflection on the type of person you are and not whether you are a caver or not. I know it's different over here but I've met unaffiliated cavers who are quite happy with their existing circles of friends and have no desire to join our caving club. Maybe it's a matter of not knowing what they're missing...
interactions which IMHO improves the overall enjoyment of and level of involvement in the sport. It is more a reflection on the type of person you are and not whether you are a caver or not. I know it's different over here but I've met unaffiliated cavers who are quite happy with their existing circles of friends and have no desire to join our caving club. Maybe it's a matter of not knowing what they're missing...
paul
Moderator
Goydenman said:
I can see where you decided a club was not for you. A similar thing happened to me MANY years ago. I started caving with a couple of school friends - not easy as we lived in North London - so we had the occasional trip to Mendip using our 125cc motor bikes staying in youth hostels. Very soon after Dave had joined a London-based club and had been telling me about his caving exploits, I decided to follow suite - they had use of a van! There was a trip to the Dales planned the following weekend and I was strongly advised to get a wetsuit. So I got a DIY wetsuit kit from the old Aquaquipment shop in St Albans and spent the whole of Thursday (school holiday) cutting out the pieces and gluing/sewing it all together in Dave's kitchen. We turned up at the pub in London as arranged the following evening for the trip to the Dales. On of the club members eventually came over and after introducing himself asked if I was over 21 - I said I was still only 18. He said, "Well you're too young to drive the van, so f**k off". Charming.
As you can imagine, I decided perhaps a caving club was not for me.
But, a few months later, we realised the three of us were getting fed up of visiting the same old caves with our paltry pile of gear: 3 x 25 foot ladders and one 50 foot length of rope. We couldn't afford to buy more gear and decided to try a club again - but a different one this time. Well we found a different one, and found all the members very friendly and a pleasure to cave with. Soon we were caving all over the UK and also trips to Belgium and Ireland. If we had continued as the three non-club cavers, this would not have happened. Also, quite a few years later I went on a trip to the Gouffre Berger organised by the first "unfriendly" club and they were a different set of individuals -all very friendly and likeable.
Well that was MANY years ago, and I now live in the Peak District and a member of a different club - sadly the previous one became defunct.
The point is that as with all groups of people of one type or another, they are all different - even in the same caving club.
Anyway - I agree with Jasonbirder. Being a member of a club is not a requirement to be a "bona fide" caver. Being a "caver" is the only requirement. As to how you define who is a "caver" and who isn't, well, that's a different argument and being a member of one group or organisation or another is not proof one way or the other, in my opinion.
But saying that, I enjoy caving with the others in my club - as well as other cavers I often cave with who are either members of other clubs or not a member of any club at all.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Peter Burgess said:
Not this time!
Peter Burgess
New member
Has someone made a complaint about not being granted access to a site even though they are 'bona fide' cavers? :-\
cap n chris
Well-known member
Nope.
Oh, OK, then! ..... *sigh*.
Imagine the scenario:
Someone is really really really keen on caves, passionately enjoys caving and has done loads of trips with plenty of variety.... BUT....
They pay for many of their experiences.
Are they a bona fide caver?
If not, why not?
Oh, OK, then! ..... *sigh*.
Imagine the scenario:
Someone is really really really keen on caves, passionately enjoys caving and has done loads of trips with plenty of variety.... BUT....
They pay for many of their experiences.
Are they a bona fide caver?
If not, why not?
Elaine
Active member
Paying for your caving experiences suggests you are led, and therefore not as fully a caver as I would have thought. A fully bona fide caver is a caver who doesn't need to be looked after aren't they?
Though I expect that you could be a perfectly capable caver, just rich enough to pay someone to take you. Or maybe so smelly that you have to pay someone to go caving with you.
Though I expect that you could be a perfectly capable caver, just rich enough to pay someone to take you. Or maybe so smelly that you have to pay someone to go caving with you.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Elaine said:
Er,... does that mean that it is only solo cavers who are bona fide?
shortscotsman
New member
I would be happy to call such a person a bona fide caver.
Whether they would be capable of leading a specific caving trip is another question, however there might be many
club cavers who also would not be capable of leading a trip.
Whether they would be capable of leading a specific caving trip is another question, however there might be many
club cavers who also would not be capable of leading a trip.
