Is it OK to go caving?
- Thread starter PeteHall
- Start date
Duck ditch
New member
I think I?m living in a bubble. Maybe the lack of travelling and meeting friends and family is the reason. Maybe we are all living in our own neighbourhood bubble.
I hope people come to the dales and enjoy the outdoors, release the tensions of living and get some fresh air. I?m keen to social distance and hope everybody else feels the same.
My heart sinks hearing and seeing what?s happening in places like Sheffield.
I think a second lock down is inevitable having seen this. It won?t be because a handful of cavers tried there best to isolate and cave at the same time.
This will keep me away from vulnerable friends and family for the foreseeable future. All because of what I see as a bunch of selfish bastards. I would be incandescent with rage if I was a nurse.
80% of people are doing the right thing but the 20% will win the day and keep us in a loop of lockdowns.
I hope people come to the dales and enjoy the outdoors, release the tensions of living and get some fresh air. I?m keen to social distance and hope everybody else feels the same.
My heart sinks hearing and seeing what?s happening in places like Sheffield.
I think a second lock down is inevitable having seen this. It won?t be because a handful of cavers tried there best to isolate and cave at the same time.
This will keep me away from vulnerable friends and family for the foreseeable future. All because of what I see as a bunch of selfish bastards. I would be incandescent with rage if I was a nurse.
80% of people are doing the right thing but the 20% will win the day and keep us in a loop of lockdowns.
I really don?t think the boffins are worried about running around outside, they are worried about indoors. In particular 8 million kids going back to school in coming months, the 7 million unable to work and Winter Is Coming as Whitty put on one of his Gresham lecture slides. And no certainty of an effective vaccine as he put on another. That?s someone who?s doing the heavy lifting and I don?t envy him. He?s also no doubt looking forward to the inquisition by the non-participants at some point.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
Speaking as one who worked within the nuclear industry handling radioactive material, I think Tim.Rose2 underplays the cross contamination route. I agree with focusing on points 2 re inhalation, 3 on subcutaneous & 4 on ingestion as routes by which one could take in the virus. And I accept that there probably is some value in writing some detailed information on exposure routes whilst caving so cavers are aware of the potential protective measures which can be taken.
But I would observe that we have no numerical 'science' to make estimates of variation in the level of probability of getting the virus. I therefore suggest we should just view the probability as being similar to all other activities for exposure. That then leaves the assessment of consequence which I presume most people are already aware of.
What did strike me is that these points all focus on 'me'. What about others? If you recall, the first concerns expressed early on referred to rescue and the impact on rescuers. That then developed onto the theme of potential bad publicity arising from a rescue. And just this week with the notional easing in England, it has struck me that we now have to take into account the views of those living in the caving areas. So the question in my mind is what other potential topic should we be looking at which might bear negatively on our sport of caving? That might be poorly put but I hope you get my thought.
But I would observe that we have no numerical 'science' to make estimates of variation in the level of probability of getting the virus. I therefore suggest we should just view the probability as being similar to all other activities for exposure. That then leaves the assessment of consequence which I presume most people are already aware of.
What did strike me is that these points all focus on 'me'. What about others? If you recall, the first concerns expressed early on referred to rescue and the impact on rescuers. That then developed onto the theme of potential bad publicity arising from a rescue. And just this week with the notional easing in England, it has struck me that we now have to take into account the views of those living in the caving areas. So the question in my mind is what other potential topic should we be looking at which might bear negatively on our sport of caving? That might be poorly put but I hope you get my thought.
Speleofish
Active member
In response to Tim Rose's post, you can recover virus from blood, urine and stool. Whether you can catch it from stool or urine isn't clear. For the general population, saliva, sputum and, to a much lesser degree blood are most important.
pwhole
Well-known member
Don't forget semen:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/07/covid-19-found-in-semen-of-infected-men-say-chinese-doctors
Also this video is very instructive, if irritatingly loop-edited, but it shows an experiment in Japan of how easily a contaminant can be spread - in this case via a buffet:
https://youtu.be/kGQEuuv9R6E
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/07/covid-19-found-in-semen-of-infected-men-say-chinese-doctors
Also this video is very instructive, if irritatingly loop-edited, but it shows an experiment in Japan of how easily a contaminant can be spread - in this case via a buffet:
https://youtu.be/kGQEuuv9R6E
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Our local park normal today. A lot of people. Toilets reopened. Icecream man there. Surely caving can't be that far away.
pwhole
Well-known member
I'm relieved to report that the so-called 'vaccine refusal protest picnics' planned by the UK Freedom Movement for my two local parks today didn't happen after all - no-one turned up and Norfolk Park was 'deserted', which is ironic, as it always is - in fact I may as well go up there now and enjoy the tranquility:
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/uk-freedom-movement-lockdown-protests-18262672
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/uk-freedom-movement-lockdown-protests-18262672
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
mikem said:
I thought you said bigger bladder, Mike. A cunning way to stop folk going anywhere is to shut all of the toilets. Does anyone know if the toilets are open at Lyme Regis ?
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
A prediction.
We will all be caving in July.
We will all be caving in July.
rhychydwr1
Active member
https://www.rt.com/uk/488867-derbyshire-police-man-kiss/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Email
Take are if you want to go caving in Matlock.
Take are if you want to go caving in Matlock.
rhychydwr1 said:
That news source still includes that piece of fake news about police dying a pool black to stop people swimming in it during the lock-down. The nice blue pool near Bixton takes the runoff from a limestone processing plant so it would be like taking a swim in strong bleach! Hence it is regularly dyed black as a safety measure to prevent the local idiots from doing themselves serious harm.
tony from suffolk
Well-known member
BREAKING - Huge lockdown protest in Hyde Park, with further gatherings expected in intensive care units across the UK next week.
PeteHall
Moderator
Well, it seems we're fairly divided, though the % split has remained fairly consistent as the numbers have increased.
Currently, numbers as follows:
37.9% - Not at all.
20.7% - With members of your household and trips are well within own ability.
34.5% - So long as social distancing is respected and trips are well within own ability.
5.7% - So long as social distancing is respected.
1.1% - Any time, anywhere.
The key issues seem to be:
- Risk to rescue team in the event of a rescue
- Public perception
Risk to the NHS or personal risk of infection seem to be much less contentious issues.
Personally, I believe the risk to rescue can be mitigated by reducing the likelihood and complexity of any potential rescue, through choice of trip. This is consistent with advice from various caving and other outdoor bodies to keep well within your own ability.
Public perception is a much softer issue and harder to quantify the severity of the issue, or possible mitigation. Ultimately, this must be considered on a very local basis and will need a good dose of common sense. I believe that the key things will be location and time. Specifically, anybody choosing to go caving would do well to choose a cave away from where people live and away from honey pot sites. I think it would also be wise to go at non-peak times, such as evenings, when locals and visitors are less likely to be out and about in the countryside.
Currently, numbers as follows:
37.9% - Not at all.
20.7% - With members of your household and trips are well within own ability.
34.5% - So long as social distancing is respected and trips are well within own ability.
5.7% - So long as social distancing is respected.
1.1% - Any time, anywhere.
The key issues seem to be:
- Risk to rescue team in the event of a rescue
- Public perception
Risk to the NHS or personal risk of infection seem to be much less contentious issues.
Personally, I believe the risk to rescue can be mitigated by reducing the likelihood and complexity of any potential rescue, through choice of trip. This is consistent with advice from various caving and other outdoor bodies to keep well within your own ability.
Public perception is a much softer issue and harder to quantify the severity of the issue, or possible mitigation. Ultimately, this must be considered on a very local basis and will need a good dose of common sense. I believe that the key things will be location and time. Specifically, anybody choosing to go caving would do well to choose a cave away from where people live and away from honey pot sites. I think it would also be wise to go at non-peak times, such as evenings, when locals and visitors are less likely to be out and about in the countryside.
