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Knot dressing - does it make any difference?

blackholesun

New member
It's been a point of contention in my club for a while and so I thought it could be worth finally settling:

While rigging, does the dressing of knots (fig. 8 and alpine butterflies, not some bowline or esoterica) make any meaningful difference to the strength of the knot?

I'm inclined to think not, particularly for 10mm, but any evidence or reasoning either way would be appreciated.
 

topcat

Active member
I don't know the answer to this, but I was very impressed with whoever rigged the Battle Axe Traverse in Lost Johns last year [NPC trip].  As I was struggling not to fall off I couldn't  help but observe that every knot was dressed to perfection!  Good work!
 

Mark Wright

Active member
blackholesun said:
It's been a point of contention in my club for a while and so I thought it could be worth finally settling:

While rigging, does the dressing of knots (fig. 8 and alpine butterflies, not some bowline or esoterica) make any meaningful difference to the strength of the knot?

I'm inclined to think not, particularly for 10mm, but any evidence or reasoning either way would be appreciated.

Poorly dressed knots are generally weaker than well dressed knots. It depends on the rope and the knot but probably around 10% weaker so the answer is they probably don't make any meaningful difference.

I would say the main differences are they look a mess and are often difficult to inspect at a glance. It doesn't take much longer to tie them neatly and this will then benefit everyone following the rigger as they will see an example of best practice rather than poor lazy practice.

Mark
 

Alex

Well-known member
THe biggest issue with not dressing it properly is the rope often pinches in one point which not only weakens the knot as above but also makes the bugger a lot harder to get undone.
 

SamT

Moderator
Alex said:
THe biggest issue with not dressing it properly is the rope often pinches in one point which not only weakens the knot as above but also makes the bugger a lot harder to get undone.

This.
 

badger

Active member
don't know the answer to breaking points to badly dressed knots.
but I agree with mark correctly dressed knots looks like you care about your rigging, easier to check that they are tied correctly and sets a mark for best practise
 

mikem

Well-known member
Is it even possible to dress an alpine butterfly badly (as opposed to a cavers')?

A fig 8 is pretty much as strong no matter how you tie it (as long as it's not incorrectly)...

Mike
 

MarkS

Moderator
mikem said:
Is it even possible to dress an alpine butterfly badly (as opposed to a cavers')?

I'm not sure I knew the answer to that before the weekend, but I know now that you certainly can! I got to a Y-hang and looked at the knot trying to work out what on earth it was. After a bit of redressing it suddenly became clear that it was a butterfly after all. I'm not sure how to actually go about tying one like that though...
 

Alex

Well-known member
I always tie them around my hand and it always looks neat, the knots that I find need thinking about dressing are ones like double fig 8 (rabbit ears).
 

Mark Wright

Active member
UKMC said:
A loose un dressed knot has a higher braking point than a tight dressed knot ????

In some cases this is true but it is very difficult to get realistic test results from the many different types of rope, the ropes wear and the many different ways of tying the various knots. Some poorly dressed and set knots may be good energy absorbers but not have a particularly high breaking strength and vice versa.

As I said before, the amount of strength loss due to a knot being poorly dressed or set is not likely to put anyone in danger, indeed there is likely to be a similar amount of strength loss due to ropes being wet and that clearly doesn't bother us too much.

Having said that, dynamic testing of wet dynamic ropes should give climbers cause for concern.

For me, the main reason for tying knots properly is it teaches those that follow the rigging an example of best practice. There is no excuse for poor rigging, its just lazy rigging.

Mark
 

SamT

Moderator
mikem said:
Is it even possible to dress an alpine butterfly badly (as opposed to a cavers')?

A fig 8 is pretty much as strong no matter how you tie it (as long as it's not incorrectly)...

Mike

I was waiting for this to crop up....

The old 5 or 10% weaker if you load the end that follows the smaller radius around the top??

Well, have a watch of this and make up your own mind. Personally, I'm in agreement with the video maker...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTVrVQwhy8A

Alex said:
the knots that I find need thinking about dressing are ones like double fig 8 (rabbit ears).

agree
 

Simon Wilson

New member
I also agree with Alex. I usually don't bother even thinking about dressing figure 8 loops and ABs seem to dress themselves automatically when you tug on them. However it is horses for courses. Caving solo or with friends - move quickly, economize on gear, miss out half the anchors, don't bother dressing knots but concentrate on the more important safety points. Rigging for a club trip - demonstrate good practice.

The video assumes the theory about a tight radius being weaker is correct. If the guy in the video is correct then it might follow theoretically that a figure 8 loop could be stronger if the loaded strand passes over more strands as it might do in a knot that was normally described as badly dressed. Of course this would then beg the question, when is a knot badly dressed?
 

Kenilworth

New member
Here's an interesting comment from a highly acclaimed author of SRT literature, SRT vendor, and SRT instructor:

Myth #6: A Figure 8 knot tied "backwards" is 10% weaker.

Truth: Absolutely incorrect. The second a load is applied to the 'outside' loop.  It will be forced to the inside of the course the lines take as they trace the knot. All efforts to keep the load line at a greater radius will only result in the load line taking the path of the lesser radius.

I disagree with many of his conclusions, both in his book and on the OnRope1 website where his Vertical Myths are posted... don't know about this one. Or particularly care.
 

SamT

Moderator
Simon Wilson said:
Kenilworth said:
... don't know about this one. Or particularly care.

I think the important bit is to know what to care about and what knot to care about.

(y)

I'm personally completely un-concerned about about a fig of eight breaking, badly dressed, "incorrectly" tied or not.  The forces involved in such an incident are much more likely to have catastrophically damaged me/something else before a fig eight breaks. I seriously doubt anyone, ever, has come come even close to breaking a fig eight knot underground, so it doesn't even register on my list of concerns. 
 

Alex

Well-known member
This is what I think of... (Excuse my very poor drawing, but I could not find any images of "knot in a dress" on google funnily enough.)

 

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nearlywhite

Active member
I think it comes more into play when rigging for people who are not very familiar with SRT. A poorly dressed knot can present all sorts of places to clip things into.

I also like a well dressed knot as you can check the rigging of someone you don't know well easily
 

SirKnotcelot

New member
Such questions are worth an addendum of sorts (the question is >120days old, but is likely to be re-raised or otherwise wondered about anyway).

To the OP, do note that often a knot isn't presented with what should be "proper dressing".  In the case at hand --even though it's a commonly used knot (!)--, OnRope1 repeats as its knot image an impossible-to-realize structure that was easy for the artist to draw : where one line simply traces the other; note how the cited video above has nicely shown the knot symmetrically dressed, and how that differs from the simplistic image (which is much copied in many sources).  In the dressing (correct) done in the video, one end comes into the knot and bears against its twin --this is the challenged dressing--, and the twin part comes in and bears against other parts of the knot, pulling away from its twin.
And re dressing, "undressed"/"sloppy" have NO particular form, so what might result in one case can hardly be taken as representative of others.  I recall someone citing some AMGA testing of mis-dressed fig.8 knots (eye knots, I think; or end-2-end ones) which found that they were on average stronger.  But, typical of such reports, there was no indication of how their properly dressed knot was done --and as this video cites, which of the twin ends bore the load.

As others have noted, proper dressing makes it easier to recognize that you've tied what you want; and that knots in rope typically are NOT going to break (and that proper USE will not see a 10%-pt.s difference making any difference!).
AND a mis-dressed knot might be less secure --it it comes loose, it loses all strength!

IMO, the claim this examiner (and OnRope1) thinks has been refuted could be substantiated were the knot SET as follows : load the tail against the eye, and then (iterate) load the eye against the knot body.  The point is to anticipate the straightening of the to-be-loaded strand by putting as much curvature in it by setting, and THEN that highly loaded main strand should see some force transfer at the deflections made through the twin turns of the eye legs' turn around it (at the entry point) and against the twin part (unloaded tail) as it reaches through the knot body to make its turn around the eye legs.  Lyon Equipment tested the fig.8, overhand, & fig.9 eyeknots, and remarked about this particular difference in loading : although their testing was less than thorough, they concluded that for the overhand it was better in the way similar to what the video shows
for the fig.8 (i.e., load the strand that bears INTO its twin (which reaches farther to turn around the eye legs); for the fig.8 that it was a toss-up, and for the fig.9 (oh, also a fig.10, IIRC) ... well, I forget.  And, of course, YMMV with materials.
AND ... (again), it shouldn't matter to actual use.  Maybe the rope sees less injury in some high-tensioned high-line rigging?


Btw, Dave Merchant suggests a slightly different, symmetric dressing, in which the main strand sort of crosses over the other; he believes that the challenged dressing of the video (which is easier to achieve!) will result in a harder-to-untie knot.

-SirK*  (who alas hasn't been minding these pages for a lonnnng time  :-[  )

ps : Get a load of OnRope1's comical mis-use of % efficiencies in strength reduction,
given in their Myth #15
Unless any of the three are excessive, i.e. a 20 year old wet rope with an overhand knot (50-55% efficiency) can push a rope beyond its life support abilities.
( -40% age,  -15% wet, -45% knot) = 0 strength.
Now, really, how can this STILLLLL be posted --it's SO damn silly!
 
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