Lack of conservation in Dreanen and the Management Policy

[shortscotsman]

Could you be a little more precise here and say which of the clubs, other than Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros of course, appear 'funny' to your eyes?

There were a couple of clubs which I could not really find (on the web).  I did find Garimpeiros but couldn't find
Draenen Diggers or  Morgannwg (although I did find a few references to this club).  A couple of criteria for being `funny''
would be 1) not a member of  CCC and 2) not possible to join....      I'm not sure how many of the clubs on PDCMG are
``open''.  less than half?

 

[graham]

2) not possible to join.... 

Surely if no-one joined there wouldn't be an issue? 

More seriously, University clubs tend to be either "closed" or at least "restricted" 'cos their parent bodies don't like funding people who have nothing to do with them.

 

[Imo]

But how many of the veiws collected by the secretary were already represented in the meeting.

Good point, a lot of people writing here on the forum and who wrote letters were from member clubs. It would be interesting to see how many, and if we remove those what the balance of opinion then is. You can also argue though, that those people who are members of more than one member club, would have had their views represented twice. To untangle it all would be a job! It states in Descent that no letters were recieved for multiple entrances, so perhaps some people should write in, to balance that out! Anyway - seems unfair to bash the secretary for trying to do their job.

 

[NigR]

There were a couple of clubs which I could not really find (on the web). I did find Garimpeiros but couldn't find Draenen Diggers or Morgannwg (although I did find a few references to this club).  A couple of criteria for being `funny'' would be 1) not a member of  CCC and 2) not possible to join....     

Thanks for the clarification.

Morgannwg CC (based in Cardiff) are a well respected long-standing club and I believe it is possible for anyone to apply to join. The Draenen Diggers is the group of people responsible for the original discovery and exploration of Ogof Draenen, most (if not all) of whom were also members of Morgannwg CC at the time. Obviously, it is a closed club (I think the membership consists of seven people, but I could be wrong). When the PDCMG was set up there were a few raised eyebrows from those who suspected this could be a ploy to secure an extra vote but nobody was really all that bothered. After all, they were the ones who had found the cave in the first place. Whatever anyone's doubts might have been, it was certainly thought to be preferable to what had happened in the past with the discovery of other major systems in Wales (ever thought about what would have happened if John Parker had found Draenen?). Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros is an open club in so much as anyone can join. However, we do tend to concentrate on exploratory caving so would probably not be a very attractive or suitable choice for the complete beginner.

Hope this helps

 

[Pete Talling]

cc: garimpeiros@tiscali.co.uk

Dear Sir,

Please can you tell me how I make an application to join Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros.

I am a very active digger in South Wales, possibly the most active underground digger in Ogof Draenen over the last two to three years. I have made discoveries of over 100 metres in that cave during the last year.

I am a long standing caving companion of one of your present members Martin Laverty. He is someone I have a lot of respect for, especially when he is in difficult situations. I have been surface digging up on the Black Mountain on several occasions with him - those are very inspiring surface digs.

I dislike committees and unnecessary beaurocracy, and like to go caving. I do wish that more caves could be ungated, and believe that access restrictions should be the minimum necessary. I think the long entrance crawl in Daren is perhaps an ideal entrance solution - as it has no gate.

I am a very experienced expedition caver (China 6 times - many with Martin; Yemen, Spain, Thailand, etc.), surveyor, and a senior professional geologist. I would be happy to send a full caving CV or come along to an interview if neccessary. Please can you tell me how the process of joining works, and the time scales involved.

I have found significant lengths of cave passages in the last year abroad, including > 1 km of passage you could drive a bus down (well, if the passage was a bit flatter) in one location in China. However, the smaller amounts of harder won cave passage I have found in remote parts of South Wales caves seem much more valuable. We have some great caves in South Wales.

I am a member of UBSS, Hong Meigui (an international exploration club based in China), and a previous member of Chelsea.

I believe it is important to be well mannered and polite. Caving clubs should not be totalitarian (one view) and good natured discussion of important topics should be encouraged within clubs to move things forward constructively. 

My personal views differ significantly from some fellow members of UBSS and some friends in the Chelsea and Hong Meigui clubs.  But I always enjoy caving with them and going for a beer afterwards (sometimes several beers). I believe that all cavers views matter. 

thank you for your time in considering this application

best wishes

Pete

 

[Ian Adams]

Pete,

Great letter 

Regards,

Ian

 

[NigR]

Dear Sir,
Please can you tell me how I make an application to join Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros.
I would be happy to send a full caving CV or come along to an interview if neccessary. Please can you tell me how the process of joining works, and the time scales involved.

Dear Pete,

Thank you for your thoughtful letter. We are always pleased to hear from experienced cavers with such skills and commitment as you clearly possess.

No full caving CV is required but if you would like to post one on the forum in any case I am sure everyone will enjoy reading it. No formal interview either, you may be pleased to know (don't know about you, but I hate interviews).

The joining process is basically that you contact me (or another of our members), as you have just done. We then invite you along on one of our digging trips, the precise date and venue of which can be arranged to be mutually convenient. Most of our members live in Wales and virtually all our active projects are in the South Wales area. As I believe you live somewhere in Hampshire this may present a problem but I am sure we can work something out. The majority of our trips are usually arranged at relatively short notice and we do not have a list of Club Meets I am afraid.

So far as Annual Subscriptions go, we do not have any as such. Each person who joins is expected to make a donation to our Digging Fund (a minimum of ?10) every 12 months or so but this is usually not as rigourously enforced as it should be (timely hint to Martin Laverty!). If you become involved in a project that is proving to be particularly costly, you are expected to donate more into the central fund so that all projects effectively become self-financing over the long term. I'm sure you get the idea.

I am somewhat busy with caving politics at the moment but once things get sorted out on that front (hopefully in the very near future) I am sure we will be able to meet up and go digging together.

Looking forward to that well-earned lemonade (don't drink beer but I'll buy you one) after the trip.

All the best,

Nig

 

[Pete Talling]

Dear Nig,

Thank you for your kind reply. I would very much like to join Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros, after coming on a few club trips. Please count me in. Brilliant.

I can certainly donate a tenner to our dig fund, and dosh to more expensive projects, that seems very reasonable. I am afraid that I would ask that the money only goes to our digs that have landowner permission and are legal, and digs that are not easy entrances into the further reaches of known caves.

Would Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros still allow me to join? Or must I pay a tenner to help you chaps with Drwys Cefn? That seems a little totalitarian and narrow minded ? people in most clubs are allowed different views about these sorts of issues. 

Do you have any legal digs at the moment away from known passage that I can help with? That would be most appreciated.

I actually do want to see the Drwys Cefn dig with you chaps. How can so much new passage be crammed into such a small gap between the hillside and the known cave? Looking at John Steven's rather fine survey, bought several years back, it shows only a blank space of 20 x 15 m, and with the known cave at what looks like the same level. It would indeed be a stirling effort to bypass that rather large areas of known passages that surround Drwys Cefn, as is it is so far from the extremities of the cave. I am particularly keen to see the active streamway that John Stevens has talked about as other people have only seen areas of drips in this new passage.

I appreciate that Drwys Cefn probably represents a huge amounts of effort ? I am a digger too. But it is obviously an easy way into the middle of a known cave - surely? Perhaps we can both ask John Stevens to post a survey so that all the cavers out there can make up their own minds. 

I am also really quite curious about whether you plan to gate the new second entrance. If there is no gate, then passing walkers can get in. There is no Daren entrance crawl, it takes << 10 minutes to get into known cave in Draenen from your new entrance. I thought your club was against gates? How would two gates better than the existing one gate?

I am worried that we are headed towards leader, permits and more restrictions. The old entrance meant there was relatively easy access to the caving community ? it was much easier access than many other caves.

The landowners are great people and you can get a hot meal after late trips in the pub if you ask them nicely. They do not need all this hassle. Will I be able to buy you that lemonade in the Lamb and Fox, and let you see what tremendous people they are?

Do Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros go to digs further away from an entrance? How about coming to one of the digs I am helping with at the extremities of the known Draenen system, as these digs aim to go into an area of blank space bigger than the existing cave. They are a little bit harder to get to, but I can manage it in my forties - and living in Hampshire! I would hope to show you why the distance from the entrance makes those remote places feel so special. I can carry the bag if you like.

Hampshire is not much further from Draenen than where you live on the far side of Swansea (you have actually said this yourself off the record), and you are from Huddersfield. I am from Windermere in the Lake District, and lived in Bristol for the last 14 years. It is quicker to get to Draenen from my old house than where you live. Does all of this really matter? It is the landowners that live by the cave.

I was sitting in Hall of the One on Saturday in Dollimore's and it is such an awesome place. It is awesome because it is so remote. If you put the same collection of boulders next to an easy walk in entrance they would not be awesome, even if those boulders were in a pristine state surrounded by ten sets of tape. Places such as Dweebland at the end of Daren - and perhaps the bottom of Quaking (my shoulders don?t fit - yet) are similarly awesome. Put the exact same passage right by an easy entrance and you lose what makes those places special. Will there be any of these awesome remote places left for other cavers in the future?

I would like to hear your reasoning. I found very useful to talk to Martin about this point, even although we disagree. We ended up with climbing analogies about putting bolts in the middle of classic climbs..... Those discussions helped me understand his views.

I would really like to join Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros if you chaps allow people in with different views.

best Pete


Dear Pete,

Thank you for your thoughtful letter. We are always pleased to hear from experienced cavers with such skills and commitment as you clearly possess.

No full caving CV is required but if you would like to post one on the forum in any case I am sure everyone will enjoy reading it. No formal interview either, you may be pleased to know (don't know about you, but I hate interviews).

The joining process is basically that you contact me (or another of our members), as you have just done. We then invite you along on one of our digging trips, the precise date and venue of which can be arranged to be mutually convenient. Most of our members live in Wales and virtually all our active projects are in the South Wales area. As I believe you live somewhere in Hampshire this may present a problem but I am sure we can work something out. The majority of our trips are usually arranged at relatively short notice and we do not have a list of Club Meets I am afraid.

So far as Annual Subscriptions go, we do not have any as such. Each person who joins is expected to make a donation to our Digging Fund (a minimum of ?10) every 12 months or so but this is usually not as rigourously enforced as it should be (timely hint to Martin Laverty!). If you become involved in a project that is proving to be particularly costly, you are expected to donate more into the central fund so that all projects effectively become self-financing over the long term. I'm sure you get the idea.

I am somewhat busy with caving politics at the moment but once things get sorted out on that front (hopefully in the very near future) I am sure we will be able to meet up and go digging together.

Looking forward to that well-earned lemonade (don't drink beer but I'll buy you one) after the trip.

All the best,

Nig

 

[NigR]

I actually do want to see the Drwys Cefn dig with you chaps.

Although Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros do not have a provisional membership system as such we do operate a fairly strict informal vetting procedure in order to prevent the wrong type of person from attempting to join. As you have correctly surmised, we are a close knit group and it is clear from your current jumbled rantings that you would, unfortunately, not fit in. Sorry to disappoint you but I strongly suspect that in your heart of hearts you have been aware of this from the beginning and you will eventually be able to come to terms with your disappointment as best you can.

I am particularly keen to see the active streamway that John Stevens has talked about as other people have only seen areas of drips in this new passage.

By your inference it would appear that you are accusing John Stevens of being a liar. Perhaps you are a bolder (or more foolish) man than I thought.

I am also really quite curious about whether you plan to gate the new second entrance.

We have been asked by the PDCMG to investigate the installation of some form of access control. I can confirm that we are currently doing precisely that.

......and you are from Huddersfield.

Sorry, but I must correct you here. I am originally from Teesside. You might possibly be confusing me with that well known and much admired caver, Bob Ford, who is (as you state) from Huddersfield. I am, however, very flattered by this case of mistaken identity.

 

[graham]

So, a dedicated cave digger with hundreds of hours of experience in Draenen and much new cave to his name is the wrong type of person for GOG.

Weird.

 

[Imo]

Although Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros do not have a provisional membership system as such we do operate a fairly strict informal vetting procedure in order to prevent the wrong type of person from attempting to join. As you have correctly surmised, we are a close knit group and it is clear from your current jumbled rantings that you would, unfortunately, not fit in.

Huh?

In our club loads of people have different views on things, and we discuss them in the pub. Sometimes we have blazing rows about them in the pub. I know views are pretty evenly split in our club on the issue of Draenen. Doesn't stop us from caving and digging together.

 

[pete_the_caver]

Club politics has f**k all to do with cave conservation.  It would be nice to hear some thoughtful suggestions on how to preserve Draenen.

 

[graham]

Club politics has f**k all to do with cave conservation.  It would be nice to hear some thoughtful suggestions on how to preserve Draenen.

Ignoring external threats, such as pollution and quarrying, and talking purely about caver impact, every single conservation technique involves a restriction of some sort on cavers. For that reason it is just about impossible to divorce conservation from caver politics, as some cavers just don't like their activities being restricted, even for the overall benefit of all.

 

[Pete Talling]

Dear Nig,

I am saddened by your reply. I am absolutely serious about wishing to join GOG. The principle that clubs can have people with different views is important  - whatever the situation with regards to Draenen. Is there a way forward?

Please can you tell me about GOG voting practices, constitution, and whether there can be an appeal. I fully appreciate that GOG might not wish to post details of discussions made during their own meetings on the web, especially before minutes have been agreed by all at the meeting. Perhaps everyone can extend that courtesy to the PDCMG with all its member clubs?

I am particularly keen to see the active streamway that John Stevens has talked about as other people have only seen areas of drips in this new passage. I would like to know how much passage is crammed into such a small (~20 by ~20 m)area between the hillside and the central part of the known cave. The wider caving community do need to know what sort of entrance Drwys Cefn is - so that we can have a democratic and constructive debate over what the way forward is in the community. Then my view is that we go with the democratic majority. 

I apologise for getting it wrong about Huddersfield. I believe that when the landowner challenged you about digging without permission on his land whilst wearing a balaclava, you said you were 'Bob Ford from Huddersfield'. Hence the misunderstanding. Where you or I come from does not matter - I absolutely agree.

Can we please now have a constructive debate about what to do with a world class cave and stop bickering. The cave is what matters most.

Posted with the best intentions for cavers, landowners who kindly allow us to cave on their land, and the cave itself.

Pete

 

[NigR]

Dear Nig,
I am saddened by your reply. I am absolutely serious about wishing to join GOG.

Sorry, Pete but I am serious about the reply as well. You would not fit in. We do not want you. Go away, please.

I am particularly keen to see the active streamway that John Stevens has talked about as other people have only seen areas of drips in this new passage.

Sorry, but this is an active dig and you are not welcome. Of course, should you choose to undertake a pirate trip, such as these 'other people' you mention must have done (I know that none of our digging team would talk to you), then that would be your own decision.

I believe that when the landowner challenged you about digging without permission......

Factually incorrect. My wife and I were not digging, we were drilling away a man-made obstruction (concrete cap) that we thought should not be there.

 

[graham]

Factually incorrect. My wife and I were not digging, we were drilling away a man-made obstruction (concrete cap) that we thought should not be there.

What did the owner think about that?

Was he pleased?

Was he annoyed?

 

[Ian Adams]

The more this debate has gone on the more it has become futile.

I don?t see that anyone?s opinions have changed (I hope I am wrong).

Mine nearly changed to becoming either neutral or supportive of the PDCMG but the fundamental issue of how it came to be remains clandestine and the fact remains that it is attempting to police the rest of the caving community.

Unless the landowner has specified, why should there be a gate on any of the entrances?  If there is a gate, why could it not be a combination lock with a phone number to telephone whereupon you would be given the number to enter?

I expect the answer will be ?conservation?..?.

I just simply can?t understand why anyone thinks they have the right to dictate their ?opinion? to others and command them to obey. You simply cannot do so unless you have a mandate in law.

What will happen with Draenen (and may already be happening) is that some people (possibly the majority) will jump through all the hoops laid down by the PDCMG to have a trip and obey their conditions. Some of those people will be happy to do that and some will be unhappy. Some will be supportive and some will not.  Some people will ignore the PDCMG or even purposefully go against them in a backlash to them demanding ?this or that?. Next what will happen is people will approach the landowner(s) themselves for permission to do something independent of the PDCMG and the landowners may or may not agree to such a request.

Someone may even persuade the landowner(s) to depose the PDCMG completely and take access control themselves (that has happened here in North Wales)

If the landowner(s) agrees to non-exclusive access ? what then of the PDCMG and their mandate for conservation?

If the landowner(s) don?t agree to allow non-exclusive access, will then those people undertake pirate trips/digs (Again, this is widespread in North Wales).

In either case, isn?t the landowner going to become fed up and aren?t we all potentially threatened by the denial of access ?

I am glad I do not live in South Wales or live near Draenen because it is fast become a war-zone and too few people have their eyes open to it. I am just sorry I live in North Wales where the situation is worse.

Ian

 

[graham]

and the fact remains that it is attempting to police the rest of the caving community.

No more so than any other access body. 

 

[graham]

I expect the answer will be ?conservation?..?.

Why is that a "bad thing"?

 

[Les W]

If there is a gate, why could it not be a combination lock with a phone number to telephone whereupon you would be given the number to enter?

This is pretty much the access control on Dranen. There is a combination lock, you can get the number if you are a bona fide caver.