Lack of conservation in Dreanen and the Management Policy

[Peter Burgess]

Are there no alternatives to tape? Some affordable but durable cord of some kind perhaps?

 

[Alkapton]

Alkapton, would you be interested in helping out replacing the tape assuming we are able to undertake doing so?

Most definately

 

[graham]

The orange tape that we (ask Chris Binding or Elsie) can source is far more inert than the stripey stuff (though I do have some blue striped "crime scene" stuff that might be appropriate for certain Welsh caves). Elsie can also supply stainless steel rods for mounting the tape. Much better than any other fixing technique, as it keeps the tape off the ground and out of the mud and the only permanent change made to the cave is a series of 4-5 mm drill holes.

In some Mendip situations, tape has been mounted such that it can be moved temporarily out of shot just to keep the photographers happy, as well. That's good, as long as they continue to abide by the constraints it imposes.

 

[NigR]

Thanks for the advice, Graham. I agree with you about the steel rods and have used these quite a lot in the past. As you say, Elsie can supply both tape and rods, although I think she is out of stock of the latter at the moment.

Alkapton, will hopefully be in touch with you once things settle down a bit.

 

[robjones]

Stainless steel cavity wall ties are a cheap (50p each?) and readily available (any builders' merchants; also various online suppliers) potential substitute for short rods - just cut one of the end loops off. About 4mm diam as I recall.

 

[pete_the_caver]

Alkapton, would you be interested in helping out replacing the tape assuming we are able to undertake doing so?

Most definately

I've seen orange electric fence strand (don't know what you call it), strung out between small stainless steel supports.  It looked rather nice.  On its own it just acts like an untidy spring so it needs to be laid tight.  Would electric fence tape do the job? 

 

[Rhys]

Alkapton, would you be interested in helping out replacing the tape assuming we are able to undertake doing so?

Most definately

I've seen orange electric fence strand (don't know what you call it), strung out between small stainless steel supports.  It looked rather nice.  On its own it just acts like an untidy spring so it needs to be laid tight.  Would electric fence tape do the job?

Probably a bit expensive.

How about razorwire?

 

[pete_the_caver]

How about razorwire?

could we paint it orange so that you to make it more visible, or how about going one further and laying a minefield around delicate formations?

 

[oli]

What will happen with Draenen (and may already be happening) is that some people (possibly the majority) will jump through all the hoops laid down by the PDCMG to have a trip and obey their conditions. Some of those people will be happy to do that and some will be unhappy. Some will be supportive and some will not.  Some people will ignore the PDCMG or even purposefully go against them in a backlash to them demanding ?this or that?. Next what will happen is people will approach the landowner(s) themselves for permission to do something independent of the PDCMG and the landowners may or may not agree to such a request.

to access dreanan all you need to do is write to the PDCMG inclosing an SAE requesting permision to enter. you are then given the code to the gate and told to phone any time you want to go down. sticking a number into a padlock is hardly a set of hoops. in practice acess to dreanan was nigh on unrestricted, every caver in the area knew the code.

and no its been changed at the request of the land owner after a whole load of shit on ukc.

if people want to complain about access to caves in s. wales i can think of much better candidates.

 

[AndyF]

to access dreanan all you need to do is write to the PDCMG inclosing an SAE requesting permision to enter. you are then given the code to the gate and told to phone any time you want to go down. sticking a number into a padlock is hardly a set of hoops.

So......... does anyone who asks get told "no"....? (and if so who "decides")

If not then there is no point in that procedure (other than some kind of crazed buraucracy) and it is, indeed, simply a hoop.... 

 

[SpeleoTrog]

So......... does anyone who asks get told "no"....? (and if so who "decides")

If not then there is no point in that procedure (other than some kind of crazed buraucracy) and it is, indeed, simply a hoop.... 

A hoop it may be but it is providing a log of all entries to the cave. CCW will no doubt use this log to compile all sorts of interesting stats and probably a requirement of any access agreement.

Admittedly, the log is only as accurate as the info provided but so long as we try do abide by it, it keeps the right people happy and maintains relatively hassle free access

 

[Peter Burgess]

But a hoop that not only provides a list of who has been down and how often, but also may act as a deterrent to those who probably shouldn't really be down there. Plus, a combination removes the need to supply and return keys. If the combination was freely published, then there wouldn't be any point in having a gate in the first place. A combination that you have to ask for seems the best option to me.

 

[Ian Adams]

Jessop (or anyone),

Are the CCW already involved ?

Regards,

Ian

 

[NigR]

Are the CCW already involved ?

No.

 

[AndyF]

But a hoop that not only provides a list of who has been down and how often,

Whats the list for? What sort of big brother cavers want to record my visits to a cave...? Pointless.

but also may act as a deterrent to those who probably shouldn't really be down there.

Who "shouldn't be down there"... and if nobody is refused then it is no deterrent...again pointless

Plus, a combination removes the need to supply and return keys. If the combination was freely published, then there wouldn't be any point in having a gate in the first place. A combination that you have to ask for seems the best option to me.

Nothing wrong with a combination lock, but changing the code that is known serves no purpose.

In two months the new combination will once again be widely known. All that will be achieved is a few people unaware of this will have trips ruined in the meantime.

Its just an attempt at some "assertiveness" on the part of some people. Its not thought through and it just looks like a badly thought swipe in the ongoing "war". Sad.

....and can't I get the code by return email? rather than a SAE...? Or notify trips by email? Its the 21st century FGS. The comments about the comitee being "Outdated" seem well founded.

 

[Peter Burgess]

What is the list for?

Not specifically to Draenen - third parties (landowners for example) might want a gauge of how much the cave is visited. Or frequency of visits can legitimise someone's position on a management body (note - not just access body).

And people who shouldn't be down there? Every cave gets its fair share of idiots who are either incompetent, naive, or just out to behave badly. At least there is a psychological barrier if you actually have to engage with a real person to gain access. Furthermore, having a real person to engage with provides a line of communication for anything else you might need to get involved with, like reporting loose boulders, or damage, to the people who are best placed to do something about it.

I really don't think you have a great deal to moan about.

 

[NOZ]

Caving in Yorkshire I feel deprived of this useful facility. I do not have to tell anybody that I wish to go caving, and furthermore I do not have to deal with real people. I have to make my own decisions. It is just not fair.

 

[Peter Burgess]

If it wasn't for gates, keys and leaders, I would never have got to meet Elaine undeground, and she wouldn't have been able to comment on my competency. 

 

[ttxela]

I've just noticed this topic on the lack of conversation in Dreanen. Surely those who cave in Wales must be able to find something to talk about, or do they agree on everything?  :-\

 

[Hughie]

If it wasn't for gates, keys and leaders, I would never have got to meet Elaine undeground, and she wouldn't have been able to comment on my competency. 

Ha - that's nothing!! If it wasn't for gates, keys and  leaders, I would never have got to meet Elaine underground, and she wouldn't have been able to marry me!!  :kiss2: