Lack of conservation in Dreanen and the Management Policy

[Ian Adams]

Graham,
I am sorry you don't understand.


Les,
Oooooooh, that's really cool. It's little gems like that which make a big difference 


Regards,

Ian

 

[graham]

Graham,
I am sorry you don't understand.

Regards,

Ian

So exp-lain.

For one thing; let us assume that an access body is necessary for cave 'X'. How do you think that a Cave 'X' access body should come into existence?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I suppose a good way would be for the cavers who have the most interest in the cave get together and forge a policy that will be acceptable to the owner and which will provide the most convenient arrangements for all cavers that are practical under the circumstances. How's that?

 

[Ian Adams]

Peter,
Yes, Perfect 


Graham,
There is no point me explaining as you are completely resolute in your position and only try to draw me away with leading questions back to your own agenda.

Ian

 

[graham]

Graham,
There is no point me explaining as you are completely resolute in your position and only try to draw me away with leading questions back to your own agenda.

Ian

So there is no point me trying to understand your position then. Oh Well.

 

[pete_the_caver]

Factually incorrect. My wife and I were not digging, we were drilling away a man-made obstruction (concrete cap) that we thought should not be there.

Really? You sure it wasn't just to start up the debate?  I think if you really wanted to open this entrance you would have succeeded.  I know that if i had wanted it open, it would be open and let's face it, your a much more experienced digger than I.

Either way, I bet it was fun lol.

hopefully see you for a trip next week

 

[Huge]

For one thing; let us assume that an access body is necessary for cave 'X'. How do you think that a Cave 'X' access body should come into existence?

I suppose a good way would be for the cavers who have the most interest in the cave get together and forge a policy that will be acceptable to the owner and which will provide the most convenient arrangements for all cavers that are practical under the circumstances. How's that?

Peter,
Yes, Perfect 

Jackalpup, do you really think Peter Burgess' idea is perfect or are you being facetious? I'm not sure. This is how the PDCMG did actually come into existence!

 

[Peter Burgess]

An important phrase in my reply is "that are practical under the circumstances". The circumstances will include public safety, conservation issues, landowner requests, available resources, and so on. Any one of these is very likely to change over time, and any access body should adapt accordingly. The extension of a cave by new discoveries is one such circumstance.

 

[NigR]

Factually incorrect. My wife and I were not digging, we were drilling away a man-made obstruction (concrete cap) that we thought should not be there.

What did the owner think about that?

Was he pleased?

Was he annoyed?

Graham,

This really is old ground to be going over now. It was covered in detail near the beginning of Andy Sparrow's original thread (can't remember the name right now, there have been so many). If you look there, you will see that your questions have already been answered.

Either way, I bet it was fun lol.
Hopefully see you for a trip next week.

Cheers, Pete. Will PM you about that trip.

 

[Ian Adams]

Huge,

I was being serious. I took Peter's words literally .... and I believe (yes, my opinion) that this kind of approach is best suited to all access situations where free access is not possible (because of the landowners wishes etc.).

I do not, however, think the PDCMG meet that criteria  :-\

Ian

 

[graham]

Factually incorrect. My wife and I were not digging, we were drilling away a man-made obstruction (concrete cap) that we thought should not be there.

What did the owner think about that?

Was he pleased?

Was he annoyed?

Graham,

This really is old ground to be going over now. It was covered in detail near the beginning of Andy Sparrow's original thread (can't remember the name right now, there have been so many). If you look there, you will see that your questions have already been answered.

It's nice to have one's prejudices confirmed explicitly though, isn't it.

 

[Huge]

To try and get a policy which was being implimented was a uphill task, with many people just wanting to run down the passages and leave it to someone else to conserve it.  You only have to read some of the descents to get the feeling that consevation was not high on the agenda. This changed when it suited them, just about the time the Nunnery entrance opened up, maybe??

Did those early Descent articles mention conservation? Possibly not. We were asked to concentrate on the excitement of exploration

Were the original explorers very careful in how they moved around the cave to minimise their impact. Definitely.

Did the original explorers lay literally miles of conservation tape in the passages they explored. Yes.

Did they get accused of laying too much tape. Yes.

Did they get accused of not laying enough tape. Yes.
(In fact Martyn Farr asked me why Morgannwg weren't doing any taping in Draenen at all. When I told him that of course we were and that I had laid miles myself, he replied that that's not what ***** ****** had told him!)

 

[Peter Burgess]

Factually incorrect. My wife and I were not digging, we were drilling away a man-made obstruction (concrete cap) that we thought should not be there.

What did the owner think about that?

Was he pleased?

Was he annoyed?

What did the landowner think? Here is an extract from Ali's account from the thread Nig mentioned.

From a factual perspective, since the current land owner purchased the land from the Coal Authority it has been his stated intention that the cave have a single entrance. As recently as last September the landowner re-iterated this position and was EXTREMELY annoyed by the actions of two individuals who were trying to re-open the exact entrance mentioned in this thread. This incident is now resolved, but it wasted a lot of people's time repairing the situation.

Any opening of a second entrance, particularly this one due to its wholly unsuitable surface location, will seriously jeopardise relations with the landowner and therefore ultimately our access.

In other words the attempt to gain 'better' access for cavers to Draenen by opening a second entrance might result in zero entrances and no access.


Ali (PDCMG Sec.)

I am curious - was the 'drilling' preparation for using chemicals of some sort?

 

[NigR]

I am curious - was the 'drilling' preparation for using chemicals of some sort?

Precisely what are you trying to achieve here, Peter? Why are you so curious?

Anyway, a straight answer to your question:

No, the drilling was not preparation for using chemicals of any sort. I had recently purchased a new 36v Bosch drill with rotary stop and had not previously had the opportunity to try out the chiselling action. The day in question, I had been digging south of Blaenavon and had not needed to use the drill, hence I had full battery power still available. I decided the concrete cap would be the perfect place to put the drill through its paces. I was not impressed. My advice to anyone who might be considering buying one of these drills purely for its chiselling action would be to think again (although in mitigation to Bosch, I have used it elsewhere since with rather greater success). As for the other, underlying reasons behind my actions you might like to ask Ali Garman as I explained these in great detail to him at the time.

Is that satisfactory, Peter, or is there anything else you would like to know? I will do my best to answer any further queries but as this happened around 15 months ago I may not be able to remember every minute detail for you.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Guess I am just human, and if a questions pops into my head, I like to have it answered. The point is, Nig, that your direct action (by Ali's account) was not received very well by the landowner, which is what Graham was asking. You are very defensive at times - maybe that's why human nature makes me, an uninvolved party, want to know more. Have a nice day.

 

[NigR]

No problem, Peter. As you can see, I'm pretty up front about what happened. I readily admit it was an ill-conceived action on my part, something I would prefer had not happened. It's just that raking over things that occurred more than a year in the past (and were dealt with at the time) is not doing much to help anyone resolve the current situation, particularly whilst negotiations are still ongoing. Hope you have a nice day too.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Guess I am just human, and if a questions pops into my head, I like to have it answered. The point is, Nig, that your direct action (by Ali's account) was not received very well by the landowner, which is what Graham was asking. You are very defensive at times - maybe that's why human nature makes me, an uninvolved party, want to know more. Have a nice day.

And before anyone else says it, this just means I am a nosey git. 

 

[Alkapton]

I appologise if this has been said before, I don't have time to read all the topic, but I've been meaning to ask this for some time....

I've been told that after relatively few years the commonplace red/white marking tape degenerates and becomes in itself a source of contamination.  Indeed I've seen some evidence of this in some caves and that does include Draenen (though other things irritate more - plastic bags, wrappers etc).

I've seen some orange tape used in Draenen which I believe is conciderably longer lasting and therefore less likely to become a problem in the near future.

I recognise the difficulty / cost of replacing all red/white tape in the cave, but I think in the long term it would be worthwhile to do so.

What do others think?

 

[Peter Burgess]

What you've heard is true I think. The orange tape is better.

 

[NigR]

I've been told that after relatively few years the commonplace red/white marking tape degenerates and becomes in itself a source of contamination. 

This is true, particularly if it is placed on top of calcite.

I've seen some orange tape used in Draenen which I believe is conciderably longer lasting and therefore less likely to become a problem in the near future.

The orange tape is indeed longer lasting and less visually intrusive but it is also much more expensive.

I recognise the difficulty / cost of replacing all red/white tape in the cave, but I think in the long term it would be worthwhile to do so.

I agree with this assessment. We have already earmarked several sections of red/white tape for replacement and it is hoped to attend to these if a satisfactory access policy regarding the use of the new entrance can be worked out.

Alkapton, would you be interested in helping out replacing the tape assuming we are able to undertake doing so?