Lancaster Easegill

[graham]

It's not that much hassle if you organise it in advance.

Problem is you don't always know the weather conditions that far in advance.

 

[Chris J]

Right - so Damien are you are serious telling me that you have trips planned a year in advance? Not just the weather - how about everything else!!

I'm pretty organised but I don't know that on the 22nd of September 2007 I want to go down X cave with X people! - I don't even know for sure which days I will be up in the dales!

Is it the case that you book all these permits for your club and then announce this to the club so that anyone can sign up for a trip?

Although I'm a member of a club we don't have 'club' trips - I arrange my own trips with my friends and fellow club members.

Does booking all these so far in advance mean that occasionally a permit is wasted?

 

[Les W]

Wessex does a similar thing - our Northern Caving Secretary books a years worth of trips, announces them to our members who then contact him to collect the permit for that particular trip. System works well and I don't think any permits get wasted, as we have 230ish members who are keen to cave in Yorkshire. 

 

[paul]

I agree with a lot of this but a week or so ago I sent off for a year's worth of permits for 2007. It probably took me about half an hour to print, sign, fold and stamp the letters. A week later (with 2nd class stamps) I have a year's worth of permits.

It's not that much hassle if you organise it in advance.

Our club Meet Booking Secretary got moaned at by the permit issuer when booking Lost John's Cave and others a year in advance...

 

[Chris J]

Wessex does a similar thing - our Northern Caving Secretary books a years worth of trips, announces them to our members who then contact him to collect the permit for that particular trip. System works well and I don't think any permits get wasted, as we have 230ish members who are keen to cave in Yorkshire. 

Hey the BEC can easily do the same thing - I'm not scared of a little admin work - but then if every club did this the waiting list would just get longer and longer and I wouldn't be convinced that every permit would get used.

 

[whitelackington]

Wot the f*** do we need permits for

All these organizations just want to stop cavers from caving

 

[Peter Burgess]

The words permit and permission are strangely related. Permits are documents that provide evidence of permission to visit. Therefore, by definition they are allowing cavers to go caving, not preventing them from doing so.

 

[andymorgan]

Stu,

Thank you for an excellent post. It must have taken an age for you to write it and I for one am grateful that you took the time.

I don't disagree with a single thing you have said but let me put my position on record, since I think it will reflect the personal opinons of most of my colleagues who work on behalf of BCA.

Open access for caving would be a lovely thing to have but we might still need to have some way of controlling who goes where and when so as to avoid congestion and reduce damage to the caves. Furthermore, as others have said, it may not provide any help to large parts of the caving community, either because their access involves activities such as digging which would not be condoned by the Act, or because the caves they want to visit are not on open access land.

More significantly, doing as you suggest will require a great deal of work by someone in preparing the arguments and making the case. No-one in BCA at present has the time to do this. We are short of volunteer resources as it is. I am prepared to be proved wrong but _I_ don't think any one will seriously argue that this is so important to us that we need to abandon other activities in order to make time for it.  Maybe that situation will change in the future - I don't know.

Let me put it another way, perhaps more bluntly. The situation as it is at present does not wind me up enough that I am prepared to stop doing other things in order to put the time into trying to change it. Can you understand this?

Nick.

Nick's comment earlier in this thread (I put in bold) suggests that the organisations may want to reduce cavers access. I can see the point, it is the old access vs conservation chestnut, which is a can of worms, and I think for the guys at the BCA they are between a rock and a hard place. What would happen if the majority of BCA's members wanted freer access, would they go against their wishes for the possible benefit of future generations of cavers?

 

[graham]

I cannot speak for members of BCA council (I ceased to be a member while it was still NCA) but I rather hope that they would regard the care of the underground environemnt to be extremely high up their list of priorities.

If cavers did not have the will to care for caves, would they deserve more open access?

 

[Stu]

Stu,

Thank you for an excellent post. It must have taken an age for you to write it and I for one am grateful that you took the time.

I don't disagree with a single thing you have said but let me put my position on record, since I think it will reflect the personal opinons of most of my colleagues who work on behalf of BCA.

Open access for caving would be a lovely thing to have but we might still need to have some way of controlling who goes where and when so as to avoid congestion and reduce damage to the caves. Furthermore, as others have said, it may not provide any help to large parts of the caving community, either because their access involves activities such as digging which would not be condoned by the Act, or because the caves they want to visit are not on open access land.

More significantly, doing as you suggest will require a great deal of work by someone in preparing the arguments and making the case. No-one in BCA at present has the time to do this. We are short of volunteer resources as it is. I am prepared to be proved wrong but _I_ don't think any one will seriously argue that this is so important to us that we need to abandon other activities in order to make time for it.  Maybe that situation will change in the future - I don't know.

Let me put it another way, perhaps more bluntly. The situation as it is at present does not wind me up enough that I am prepared to stop doing other things in order to put the time into trying to change it. Can you understand this?

Nick.

Nick's comment earlier in this thread (I put in bold) suggests that the organisations may want to reduce cavers access. I can see the point, it is the old access vs conservation chestnut, which is a can of worms, and I think for the guys at the BCA they are between a rock and a hard place. What would happen if the majority of BCA's members wanted freer access, would they go against their wishes for the possible benefit of future generations of cavers?

If this was (is) the case, could anyone imagine for arguments sake the BMC or BCU trying to control access? There would be anarchy. They have as much to gain/lose as cavers - arguably more; non climbers/paddlers can see a shit tip of a state without having to actually get into the activity - cavers only see the crap left by other cavers. Hence public perception is less  = less negative feeling.

 

[damian]

Right - so Damien are you are serious telling me that you have trips planned a year in advance? Not just the weather - how about everything else!!

I'm pretty organised but I don't know that on the 22nd of September 2007 I want to go down X cave with X people! - I don't even know for sure which days I will be up in the dales!

Is it the case that you book all these permits for your club and then announce this to the club so that anyone can sign up for a trip?

Although I'm a member of a club we don't have 'club' trips - I arrange my own trips with my friends and fellow club members.

Does booking all these so far in advance mean that occasionally a permit is wasted?

That's exactly what I do and it seems to work well.

On occasions a permit is wasted - mostly because of weather, in which case it would be wasted for anyone else too.

I agree it is far from ideal, but it's the only way I can see to make the permit system work for me.

 

[Chris J]

I agree it is far from ideal, but it's the only way I can see to make the permit system work for me.

Exactly - but wouldn't it be better if you didn't have to do this? Aren't the Southern and Welsh systems better? I.e. show up and get a permit on the day or just a short while in advance? Collect permits/keys from caving clubs rather than writing off 6 months in advance.

I'm not saying we can replicate the exact same model but we need to do something about this system.

How about:
Diary and applications online (made by a verified user?)- if successful you receive a permit 'code' which is unique to your group and the day you want to go caving.

You then display a printed out 'permit' with group name and code on it. This unique ref can be checked by anyone over the net to see if it is correct.

 

[damian]

How about:
Diary and applications on-line (made by a verified user?)- if successful you receive a permit 'code' which is unique to your group and the day you want to go caving.

You then display a printed out 'permit' with group name and code on it. This unique ref can be checked by anyone over the net to see if it is correct.

Wonderful .. and if I had the know-how and the time, I'd offer to create such a system. However, until someone does I'll have to stick to envelopes and stamps.

Exactly - but wouldn't it be better if you didn't have to do this? Aren't the Southern and Welsh systems better? I.e. show up and get a permit on the day or just a short while in advance? Collect permits/keys from caving clubs rather than writing off 6 months in advance.

I have my reservations - stated elsewhere - about CCC Ltd in that I cannot put a cave on the Meets List and guarantee we will be able to go there. Therefore I actually prefer the Northern system to this.

In S. Wales there are very few caves where you can just turn up and get a key - and you have to write off for them. The rest need you to write in advance with an SAE and a deposit for the key and then post the key back again afterwards. Nightmare! At least once I have a permit for the Dales, that's all I need to do for the rest of the year.

 

[graham]

I have my reservations - stated elsewhere - about CCC Ltd in that I cannot put a cave on the Meets List and guarantee we will be able to go there. Therefore I actually prefer the Northern system to this.

The major difference between the two systems is that our caves are gated & theirs tend not to be. However, as there are twenty keys to G.B. for example, available from Huts all over the Hill it is highly unlikely that one will not be available to you on a given day. Our system has the advantage that if it is pissing with rain on the day you can say "sod it" to Longwood & go down G.B. instead. And anyway given the vagaries of British weather there are very few caves that you can guarantee a trip down - especially a year in advance.

 

[Chris J]

Wonderful .. and if I had the know-how and the time, I'd offer to create such a system. However, until someone does I'll have to stick to envelopes and stamps.

I have my reservations - stated elsewhere - about CCC Ltd in that I cannot put a cave on the Meets List and guarantee we will be able to go there. Therefore I actually prefer the Northern system to this.

In S. Wales there are very few caves where you can just turn up and get a key - and you have to write off for them. The rest need you to write in advance with an SAE and a deposit for the key and then post the key back again afterwards. Nightmare! At least once I have a permit for the Dales, that's all I need to do for the rest of the year.

Don't rekon that (web system) would be as hard as it sounds - bet there are plenty of cavers with the technical know how.

Not sure where you got your S. Wales ideas from - there are 19 caves listed for which you need to ask for a key (from http://cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk) Of these 19, It is really only the Forest of Dean caves you need to send off for a key for. The others you don't need to actually ask for a key - SWCC can issue them at weekends, they can be got from Whitewalls or other clubs, Danny you have to have a leader any way, Draenen is a combination lock etc..

By my count it is just 7 of those caves that access is really an issue for (Forest + Craig a Ffynnon).

In short I've never felt access to any Welsh cave was really an issue - unlike the CNCC permit system which really does stop me going underground.

 

[Peter Burgess]

And I can't recall a time when I have been prevented from visiting a CCCltd cave because a key couldn't be found. We might have had to traipse around four or five clubs to get one, and then finally get underground two hours later, but we're not put off easily!

 

[dunc]

That's exactly what I do and it seems to work well.

On occasions a permit is wasted - mostly because of weather, in which case it would be wasted for anyone else too.

Yep, I've already sent off and got back a few permits for next year - it usually works ok for me too.

Yes the odd permit is wasted, but thats mostly the weather and even if the weather is dodgy there are in some places drier alternatives - IIRC the permit is to cross the fell so you could walk to any cave, say for instance its too wet for Pool Sink, go to County instead and thus the permit isn't wasted.. Simple..

The others you don't need to actually ask for a key - SWCC can issue them at weekends, they can be got from Whitewalls or other clubs, Danny you have to have a leader any way, Draenen is a combination lock etc..

I thought OFD1 was a leader thing too? And what of Aggy, I wasn't aware that a key could be obtained by asking a club at a weeeknd..?

unlike the CNCC permit system which really does stop me going underground.

How can it 'stop' you going underground? :doubt:

 

[nickwilliams]

Coming back to the topic of open access land, there's an interesting article on the BMC's website at

http://83.231.159.41/bmcnews/NewsItem.aspx?id=1199

Essentially, United Utilities have announced a proposal for charging commercial operators who use their land for outdoor activities. I don't think this affects any caves (i.e. there are none on UU land) but it could set a significant precedent for other landowners where access for caving is an issue.

Nick.

 

[graham]

Thanks for that link Nick. It would seem that the nub of the matter is this paragraph:

This highly contentious policy has developed from UU’s interpretation of wording in the CRoW Act, which states ‘a person is not entitled to be on Open Access land if they are engaged in any activity which is organised or undertaken (whether by him or another) for any commercial purpose,’ - ‘commercial’ being defined as an operation where ‘profit is the primary motive.’

Now, although we know that CRoW does not apply to caves, I can think of a number of caves, currently freely accessible, that are used for "commercial purposes" in various different regions of the UK. It would be interesting to see the result if this piece of news came to the attention of those landowners.

 

[Stu]

There is a follow up to this article which I think hasn't been reported yet. It comes from a second meeting with UU. The BMC rep seems to be more optimistic then he was when he attended the first meeting.