Lancaster Easegill

[MSD]

The root of this problem is that CNCC is exactly what it says it is - the Council of Northern Caving Clubs. It negotiates access on behalf of the members of its consituent clubs. That covers a lot of cavers, but it doesn't cover everyone. It doesn't cover individuals who are not members of a club (or a club which is not in CNCC) and it doesn't cover international guests. Since it has NO PROCEDURES to deal with people who fall into such categories I don't believe it has much legitimacy in terms of complaining if those people "don't abide by the rules". CNCC doesn't negotiate on behalf of these people, therefore they are not bound by the rules. Of course the landowner/tennant can say no when you ask for permission on an individual basis, but in my experience they don't (or simply turn a blind eye and not care).

In the case of people living in Britain it might be a reasonable argument to say "well, go join a club which is a member of CNCC". But that argument is not appropriate for cavers from other countries visiting Britain. If international guests could, for a reasonable fee and reasonably conveniently (ie book and pay online) get permits and BCA insurance, I'm sure they would.

Mark

 

[graham]

I know I've come out, essentially, in support of CNCC in this debate, but Mark's last post gave me wry amusement as it mirrored in many ways the complaints of cavers from places other than the Dales over many years about the fact that CNCC & the northern clubs looked after their own interests & made it difficult for cavers from other parts of the country to get involved. Yes, clubs from elsewhere could join as associate members & get permits but they were kept at arms length when compared to access schemes in other parts of the country that had the same criteria for allcomers.

Now, I've caved in various countries in Europe & rarely had an access problem (that didn't also affect the locals); in the UK thanks to the BCA "reforms" access is open to all Brits (who wish to get involved - i.e. not Darkplaces  ). On Thursday I will be caving with people insured through the BCA scheme, the FFS scheme and the Swiss scheme, without a problem. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to handle Mark's particluar circumstance within the BCA framework?

 

[Peter Burgess]

In the case of people living in Britain it might be a reasonable argument to say "well, go join a club which is a member of CNCC".

This is precisely the reason why my club joined CNCC many years ago, and I suspect why a lot of other clubs did as well. It was considered worth doing for simple access to some of Britain's classic cave systems.

 

[Les W]

In the case of people living in Britain it might be a reasonable argument to say "well, go join a club which is a member of CNCC".

This is precisely the reason why my club joined CNCC many years ago, and I suspect why a lot of other clubs did as well. It was considered worth doing for simple access to some of Britain's classic cave systems.

Although now we have the "one stop shop" it is no longer necessary to belong to CNCC to book permits to the Dales caves. So long as your club is a member of BCA (and if not then why not?) you can book permits. 

 

[nickwilliams]

But that argument is not appropriate for cavers from other countries visiting Britain. If international guests could, for a reasonable fee and reasonably conveniently (ie book and pay online) get permits and BCA insurance, I'm sure they would.

I'm sure the only reason we (BCA) haven't got a protocol for dealing with this is simply because no-one has previously thought about it. I would not have thought it would be too difficult to establish a 'reciprocal' agreement for non-UK cavers who are members of their own national association. How could this be made to work for you, Mark?

Nick.

 

[MSD]

I'll look into it! The main problem I see is insurance issues....we have had severe problems with caving insurance in Sweden because the numbers are so small. What we have actually been discussing is to try and "buy in" to an insurance scheme run in a bigger country, such as BCA or FFS. If that were possible with BCA (including possibility to buy caving travel insurance for expeditions), a lot of problems would immediately become a lot easier (not the least of which is how the hell am I going to fix insurance for a caving trip in January).

Alternatively it could be made possible to buy BCA 3rd party insurance for a short visit. Maybe this is already a theoretical possibilty, but it needs to be made convenient if it is to be useful. If one could fix all this stuff on a website and pay by Paypal, life would be much easier. Now there's an idea! Auction off permits to caves on Ebay!!!

Mark

 

[graham]

Go for the FFS cover, more expensive than BCA but its party cover includes not just third parties but cocktail parties.

 

[ChrisB]

possibility to buy caving travel insurance for expeditions

It might be worth checking with the BMC, if you haven't done so. Apart from climbers, a lot of people use BMC insurance for kayaking trips; I think their brokers have a good understanding of sports like ours.

 

[nickwilliams]

possibility to buy caving travel insurance for expeditions

It might be worth checking with the BMC, if you haven't done so. Apart from climbers, a lot of people use BMC insurance for kayaking trips; I think their brokers have a good understanding of sports like ours.

BMC's PL insurers (Royal and Sun Alliance) won't insure cavers. I've just looked at their travel policy (which is apparently provided by a different underwriter) and apparently the 'Expedition' level policy includes 'potholing and caving'. Whether that really includes a full expedition rescue service, I'm not qualified to say. 

Nick.

 

[paul]

A caving friend of mine who is often caving abroad (India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran...) always uses ADT (the German equivalent of the AA) for insurance cover - seriously, and we used them while caving in Thailand.

The only drawback is the monthly magazine about cars in German - of which I understand extremely little...

 

[kay]

Snowcard cover caving in a reasonably sensible way. But that's travel type insurance, not liability insurance which is what BCA insurance is about. I thought BMC was also travel type insurance?

 

[ChrisB]

Personal liability; up to £2 million

If you accidentally injure someone or damage someone else’s property during the period of insurance, you will be covered for your legal liability:

  1. to people who do not work for you and who are not your traveling companions or members of your family; and
  2. for accidental damage to property which is not owned or being looked after by you or a member of your family.

That looks to me adequate to cover liability to landowners, but I'm happy to be corrected by those with more experience of the topic.

 

[Les W]

Snowcard will only insure you if you are resident in the UK

 

[nickwilliams]

Personal liability; up to £2 million

If you accidentally injure someone or damage someone else’s property during the period of insurance, you will be covered for your legal liability:

   1. to people who do not work for you and who are not your traveling companions or members of your family; and
   2. for accidental damage to property which is not owned or being looked after by you or a member of your family.

That looks to me adequate to cover liability to landowners, but I'm happy to be corrected by those with more experience of the topic.

It covers you for your own liability, but it does not cover the landowner for his liability to you and others. It is exactly this latter point which is the specific item which distinguishes the BCA PL policy from all others. 'Landowner Indemnity' as this is called, is a condition of most access agreements negotiated by the regional councils including (to bring this back on topic) those negotiated by CNCC.

Because of this, BCA does not consider Snowcard (or any other travel schemes, including the BMC one) as an adequate alternative to the BCA scheme.

Nick

 

[ChrisB]

Nick, thanks for clarifying that. I understand now.

Very unusual, I should think, to insure somebody else against claims you might make on them, but I can see exactly why we need it.

Chris

 

[paul]

A caving friend of mine who is often caving abroad (India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran...) always uses ADT (the German equivalent of the AA) for insurance cover - seriously, and we used them while caving in Thailand.

The only drawback is the monthly magazine about cars in German - of which I understand extremely little...

Actually, that should have been ADAC, not ADT.  :-[

 

[whitelackington]

I think you will find that the landowner of Leck Fell is Lord something-or-other and is resident in Canada.
The farmer is a tenant. The land manager is down in Leck village (where you are supposed to drop the
permits on the way off the fell).
Negotiations have been ongoing on and off for years to extend the permits but as someone previously
mentioned the guy doesn't seem that keen to having lots of us on his land.
However considering the digging projects that have been approved over recent years one can only
assume that he is not all anti-caving.

Lord Shuttleworth

 

[whitelackington]

The Lord-Lieutenant of Lancashire

The Office of Lord-Lieutenant is military in origin and dates from the reign of Henry VIII when the holder was made responsible for local defence.

Nowadays, the Lord-Lieutenant is appointed by Her Majesty The Queen to be her personal representative in the County. As such he represents Her Majesty at events in the County and is responsible for the preparation of programmes for Royal Visits to Lancashire, for the presentation of awards to organisations (Queen's Awards to Industry) and to individuals as well as advising on Honours Nominations. The post is non-political and is unpaid.

The current Lord-Lieutenant of Lancashire is:
The Lord Shuttleworth JP of Leck Hall, near Carnforth, Lancashire, LA6 2JF.

Enquiries should be directed to:

The Lieutenancy Office
County Hall
Preston
PR1 8XJ

Telephone: (01772) 533364/533361
Fax: (01772) 531987
Email: lieutenancy@css.lancscc.gov.uk

 

[Chris J]

Right - only just found this thread when looking for info on Casterton fell permits. I was trying to be a good little caver and do things properly by asking for a permit.

Few points then:

1) permit sec doesn't appear to have an email address?
2) If on Mendip/Wales you can get a permit on the day you want to go caving why can't you for Yorkshire? Is it because there is a long queue or do land owners simply want 3 months warning?
3) Is there another thread with suggestions on how we can improve the CNCC's arrangements? (someone seemed to suggest there was)
4) Websites do not take two years to develop. But I sympathise with the CNCC webmaster and recommend Joomla or any other Content Management based for 'off the shelf' website. You get fast results quickly and 'anyone' (i'm not technical) can maintain a website.
5) I have defended the CNCC permit system to other cavers many times and do believe in the work they do - I just hope there is a way to make this far more efficient.
6) It is 2006 - sending a SAE 3 months in advance?
7) Thanks to all the hard work done by all those involved in the permit systems

 

[damian]

I agree with a lot of this but a week or so ago I sent off for a year's worth of permits for 2007. It probably took me about half an hour to print, sign, fold and stamp the letters. A week later (with 2nd class stamps) I have a year's worth of permits.

It's not that much hassle if you organise it in advance.