Lancaster Easegill

[spikey]

Yes, frequently. The hard facts are that the landowner does not want cavers on his land.

Can I ask where the landowner boundaries are up there, as I have to say that the chap at Leck Fell House (?) (the farm at the end of the road) has been a nothing short of superb whenever I have been up there (although admittedly I have been heading down towards the Pippikin end of the fell, and not for a couple or three years), even so far as to lend his barn on several occasions to get changed in.

Does someone different own the other parts of the fell (eg the Lost Johns, Gavel, Notts entrances etc.), have things changed hands, or possibly are the farmers tennants, rather than the actual landowner?

Maybe I'm just out of touch with the situation on the fell.

 

[francis]

As MSD said, this easter we didn't have a permit and we met the farmer on the way up to lost johns (clearly we were cavers as everybody in the cars had yellow suits on) and he just gave us a friendly wave. I asume this was the guy from the end of the road as he and his wife had loads of sheep with them. It's sad that in the UK you can't go wherever you like whenever you like, like you can in scandinavia. In scandinavia, the only places you have to keep away from are military places, peoples gardens and fields with crops/grazing animals on them.

Francis

 

[Glenn]

Stu Wrote:

"Glenn, does an attendee have to be sponsored by club i.e. letter, or can they just show up?"

Just show up, although as your club already has a CNCC rep (SP8) it may be courteous to inform him that you will be attending.

 

[paul]

It's sad that in the UK you can't go wherever you like whenever you like, like you can in scandinavia. In scandinavia, the only places you have to keep away from are military places, peoples gardens and fields with crops/grazing animals on them.

Francis

Many British caves are located in fields and moorland with grazing animals...

 

[francis]

I just checked up on it, the animal bit was actually wrong. You have to close gates and not disturb the animals is what the law states. IMO the mountains (including caves) should be free for all to enjoy unless there is a specific reason for having to restrict access like cave conservation.

 

[Getwet]

To take this back to the start, sort of..

hyperthetically, I am and unemployed/retired caver of some experience but am not a member of a club due to financial limitations. I cave with a friend of a similar position

Does this mean we are unable to acess the vast majority of caves in the area because we cant get a permit??

 

[Stu]

CNCC only send out permits to affiliated clubs. So no, you won't get a permit.

 

[Les W]

CNCC only send out permits to affiliated clubs. So no, you won't get a permit.

This statement is no longer true.
CNCC now issue permits to BCA member clubs.

 

[Glenn]

CNCC only send out permits to affiliated clubs. So no, you won't get a permit.

This statement is no longer true.
CNCC now issue permits to BCA member clubs.

I think the pertinent thing is that CNCC issue permits to clubs, not individual cavers. And yes, to BCA member clubs.

 

[Getwet]

An intersting point here, are The CNCC actually promoting caving and cave access or are they restricting access to the chosen one who are "in the club" and if you are not "in the club" then you can`t visit the caves................ :ras:

 

[cap n chris]

but am not a member of a club due to financial limitations. I cave with a friend of a similar position

WHAAT?!

Down on Mendip club membership will cost you about £10 per year (club with no hut) through to about £30 per year (club with hut). How much is club membership where you are?

 

[ChrisB]

How much is club membership where you are?

He's in a hypothetical place, so anything could be true.

 

[graham]

The CNCC work hard to maintain good landowner relations. They work hard to bolt caves for the benefit of cavers, as part of BCA they share their work with other like-minded cavers across the country, who also belong to clubs that work to maintain access arrangments and to conserve our caves.

Now, why should they share all that with those who give nothing back?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Graham has a point, though I would put it another way. The CNCC, CSCC, etc have a primary function to represent the interests of their members. They do not have a duty to anyone else. One of the interests they protect is access. If you want access you can either negotiate as an individual by asking permission directly, or rely on the good services of someone you have chosen to represent you. That's how things work in the big wide world, once you have moved away from the protection of your parents.

 

[Cavedrone]

I think you will find that the landowner of Leck Fell is Lord something-or-other and is resident in Canada.
The farmer is a tenant. The land manager is down in Leck village (where you are supposed to drop the
permits on the way off the fell).
Negotiations have been ongoing on and off for years to extend the permits but as someone previously
mentioned the guy doesn't seem that keen to having lots of us on his land.
However considering the digging projects that have been approved over recent years one can only
assume that he is not all anti-caving.

 

[dunc]

hyperthetically, I am and unemployed/retired caver of some experience but am not a member of a club due to financial limitations. I cave with a friend of a similar position

If nobody has cash then how do you get down most northern potholes? Tackle costs money and the cost of one rope, say 40m of 10mm would cover a years membership (plus insurance) of most clubs and you would have access to a lot more tackle!

are The CNCC actually promoting caving and cave access or are they restricting access to the chosen one who are "in the club" and if you are not "in the club" then you can`t visit the caves.

The above replies are good answers, the only other thing I can think of adding is; its not actually the CNCC that dictates how access is arranged or what restrictions there should be - its the landowners..

 

[MSD]

Graham has a point, though I would put it another way. The CNCC, CSCC, etc have a primary function to represent the interests of their members. They do not have a duty to anyone else. One of the interests they protect is access. If you want access you can either negotiate as an individual by asking permission directly, or rely on the good services of someone you have chosen to represent you. That's how things work in the big wide world, once you have moved away from the protection of your parents.

So, if you have a permit and find someone else in the cave, do you say "oh, you must have negotiated access by yourself, since you got here first I'll go somewhere else". Or do you get irritated with the "pirates" who have gone down the cave you have "booked"?

The trouble is, your argument works the other way too. I as an individual can take the attitude "I'll go caving where I like, if I upset landowners that's between me and the landowners." What duty does an individual have towards CNCC and its members?

As I pointed out in an earlier post, a lot of the caving I have done in Britain in the last years has been on visits from Sweden, often with other Swedish cavers. The Swedish Speleo Federation  is not a member of CNCC (hardly surprising) and CNCC has no procedures for foreigns visitors to obtain permits (why?). I personally am a member of a club which is affiliated to CNCC, but arranging permits through that cub is problematic because of the insurance question - if our club has obtained the permit it is an "official" club meet. That means it must be led by a club member and everybody on the trip must have BCA insurance. Hardly a practical situation if I have 15 other cavers with me.

So, occams razor is applied = go caving without any permit = cut through all the red tape in one easy move.  Now, if I left a trail of angry landowners behind me, you could rightly call me a selfish idiot. But I haven't, to my knowledge, upset any landowners at all. On the other hand I have upset some cavers.....but I don't have much sympathy for their position. The CNCC permit system effectively excludes me and my friends from certain caves in the Dales, that being the case I'll make my own arrangements thanks very much (just as you suggest Peter!)

Mark

 

[graham]

What duty does an individual have towards CNCC and its members?

I take it you never use the in-situ P-hangers then?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Mark

My comments were directed to those people who are clearly concerned that not being in a club meant they couldn't visit these caves. Those who pirate their access clearly do not share this concern, unless they are worried about getting caught, of course. The argument stands: The regional councils are there to represent the interests of their members. Just as I don't expect the committee of Wessex CC to look after my interests as a non-Wessex member, unless I am paying to use their facilities, of course. If the regional councils levvied a charge for permits to non-members, then they could be considered as looking after members' interests, by raising useful revenue to pay for required security etc.

 

[Peter Burgess]

So, if you have a permit and find someone else in the cave, do you say "oh, you must have negotiated access by yourself, since you got here first I'll go somewhere else". Or do you get irritated with the "pirates" who have gone down the cave you have "booked"?

If I have used a legitimate channel to gain access, and I meet someone else in the cave, it's not really my business to find out whether they were there legitimately or not, unless I am directly involved in organising the access methods (which in the case of the fells, I am not). I know that I have gained access by following the rules. It is a matter for the conscience of the other party, and not for me to be directly concerned.