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Landowners - what did they ever do for us?

A thought provoking article from today's Guardian - http://www.monbiot.com/2014/12/02/breaking-the-silence/

For all the talk of landowners and their, allegedly, sensitive feelings - from delicate to explosive - it isn't always obvious who they - or even their agents - are or what it is that they consider so valuable about their land that they shouldn't share with the public who are often paying them to maintain it.

Scotland, already ahead of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland on free public access to much of the land (and caves) within its boundaries, is now drawing attention to the nature and income streams of some of the landowners that the constitutions of BCA and several regional councils say we should respect.
 

Blakethwaite

New member
I have no idea about the content of that article but I would certainly treat anything in Monbiot's columns with a great deal of scepticism (and I read the Guardian). Impartiality and balanced views are not something I think he even pretends to achieve.

 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
I've always found the "landowners this", "landowners that" and the oft repeated threat by one whose name cannot be spoken that "landowners visit this forum" to be very amusing.

I'm a landowner, I guess you are a landowner and many, many people on this forum are landowners or tenants of plots large and small. Do we all think with one mind because we are "landowners"? No. Do the hill farmers and the landed gentry think with one mind? I very much doubt it.

However, all the landowners I have dealt with have been at least cordial whilst refusing permission to dig and at best positively welcoming and wanting to see what is down there.
 

martinm

New member
Good points TBE, but it is a fact that "landowners visit this forum". I have relations with them and respect their rights and wishes. If it wasn't for nice landowners and cavers talking to them in a respectful manner we would lose access to many of our caves. This thread should have even been started. Every cave is on land owned by someone and we should be grateful for their allowing us access to the caves on their land.  :coffee:
 

Bottlebank

New member
mmilner said:
Good points TBE, but it is a fact that "landowners visit this forum". I have relations with them and respect their rights and wishes. If it wasn't for nice landowners and cavers talking to them in a respectful manner we would lose access to many of our caves. This thread should have even been started. Every cave is on land owned by someone and we should be grateful for their allowing us access to the caves on their land.  :coffee:

For once Mel you and I agree, although I think you probably meant to say "This thread should NEVER have even been started?"
 

bograt

Active member
I would like to point out one key flaw in Monbiot's article, he implies that most farm subsidies come from the British tax payer, this is not true, the British tax payer's money goes to pay for our membership of the EU., where the actual subsidies come from.
The Rural Payments Agency (RPA) administers payments of EU. money. The EU, via the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) pretty much dictates how this cash is distributed, at the moment this has veered from intensive food production towards sustainability and conservation.

P.S. We own and farm over 100acres of the Peak District (thankfully not cave bearing) so when it comes to farming I know what I'm on about.
 

Burt

New member
The vast majority of landowners on Mendip are kind enough to let us access the caves on their land. That's what they do for us. :beer:
 

Simon Wilson

New member
mmilner said:
................... Every cave is on land owned by someone and we should be grateful for their allowing us access to the caves on their land. 

But they don't all allow access. Off the top of my head, there must be in the region of a hundred square miles of cave bearing access land where the landowner does not allow any access to caves whatsoever. Please don't split hairs, there's lot of that land.

As far as I am aware those landowners have not yet been approached in regard to access under CRoW. It might be the case that they would be favourable to access under CRoW if they knew it would indemnify them.
 

bograt

Active member
Burt said:
The vast majority of landowners on Mendip are kind enough to let us access the caves on their land. That's what they do for us. :beer:

(y) (y),This illustrates the understanding and efficiency of your local access officer, I would re-iterate a comment I made on another thread; At the moment there are no direct financial benefits to a landowner for doing this.
 

bograt

Active member
Simon Wilson said:
As far as I am aware those landowners have not yet been approached in regard to access under CRoW. It might be the case that they would be favourable to access under CRoW if they knew it would indemnify them.

Fair comment, have they been made aware of the BCA insurance scheme that would indemnify them anyway?, comes down to the access officer ;)
 

Stu

Active member
Is there anything that he says that is refutable? The one example given of British taxpayers money > EU > farmers is still money from taxpayers findings its way to them, which has, to me anyway, always amounted to the same thing. The point that the rich get richer and do very nicely from exerting their power to influence on a level beneficial to them, is probably fair comment.
 

royfellows

Active member
Ahem
Cambrian Mines Trust is a landowner.
If anyone is unsure about why we exist please visit our website and download our articles.

I cannot speak for the National Trust, or other landowniing trusts, maybe someone else will. And as far as George Monbiot is concerned I decline to comment.
 

bograt

Active member
Stuart Anderson said:
Is there anything that he says that is refutable? The one example given of British taxpayers money > EU > farmers is still money from taxpayers findings its way to them, which has, to me anyway, always amounted to the same thing. The point that the rich get richer and do very nicely from exerting their power to influence on a level beneficial to them, is probably fair comment.

Someone will have to 'Crunch the numbers' to work out if the amount of cash paid by British taxpayers to EU equates to farm subsidies, quite frankly I can't be ars*d.

I could, however, with a bit of work, offer you the price of a lamb chop without any subsidy, At the moment we are selling them at around ?13.00 a kilo, direct from the farm, reduction of subsidy would considerably increase this price, how much are you prepared to pay for the food produced on caving land?
 

martinm

New member
Bottlebank said:
mmilner said:
Good points TBE, but it is a fact that "landowners visit this forum". I have relations with them and respect their rights and wishes. If it wasn't for nice landowners and cavers talking to them in a respectful manner we would lose access to many of our caves. This thread should have even been started. Every cave is on land owned by someone and we should be grateful for their allowing us access to the caves on their land.  :coffee:

For once Mel you and I agree, although I think you probably meant to say "This thread should NEVER have even been started?"

Soz, yes that's what I meant to type. Doh. PM me about things we don't appear to agree on! We are all reliant on good relationships with landowners, whoever they might be. So, in conclusion they have done a LOT for us, for which we should be grateful. Mel
 

Simon Latimer

New member
bograt said:
Stuart Anderson said:
Is there anything that he says that is refutable? The one example given of British taxpayers money > EU > farmers is still money from taxpayers findings its way to them, which has, to me anyway, always amounted to the same thing. The point that the rich get richer and do very nicely from exerting their power to influence on a level beneficial to them, is probably fair comment.

Someone will have to 'Crunch the numbers' to work out if the amount of cash paid by British taxpayers to EU equates to farm subsidies, quite frankly I can't be ars*d.

I could, however, with a bit of work, offer you the price of a lamb chop without any subsidy, At the moment we are selling them at around ?13.00 a kilo, direct from the farm, reduction of subsidy would considerably increase this price, how much are you prepared to pay for the food produced on caving land?

Thanks Bograt,
If you could work out the price per Kilogram for an un-subsidised piece of lamb? That would be interesting.
It would be great to see how much we save on our weekly meat bill. And of course Id be interested in how much you as a farmer receives as part of the sudsidy system?

 

Simon Wilson

New member
mmilner said:
Bottlebank said:
mmilner said:
Good points TBE, but it is a fact that "landowners visit this forum". I have relations with them and respect their rights and wishes. If it wasn't for nice landowners and cavers talking to them in a respectful manner we would lose access to many of our caves. This thread should have even been started. Every cave is on land owned by someone and we should be grateful for their allowing us access to the caves on their land.  :coffee:

For once Mel you and I agree, although I think you probably meant to say "This thread should NEVER have even been started?"

Soz, yes that's what I meant to type. Doh. PM me about things we don't appear to agree on! We are all reliant on good relationships with landowners, whoever they might be. So, in conclusion they have done a LOT for us, for which we should be grateful. Mel

There are caves with no access at all and where the landowner refuses to even talk about it. There is also access land with no access to caves.
 

martinm

New member
Simon Wilson said:
mmilner said:
Bottlebank said:
mmilner said:
Good points TBE, but it is a fact that "landowners visit this forum". I have relations with them and respect their rights and wishes. If it wasn't for nice landowners and cavers talking to them in a respectful manner we would lose access to many of our caves. This thread should have even been started. Every cave is on land owned by someone and we should be grateful for their allowing us access to the caves on their land.  :coffee:

For once Mel you and I agree, although I think you probably meant to say "This thread should NEVER have even been started?"

Soz, yes that's what I meant to type. Doh. PM me about things we don't appear to agree on! We are all reliant on good relationships with landowners, whoever they might be. So, in conclusion they have done a LOT for us, for which we should be grateful. Mel

There are caves with no access at all and where the landowner refuses to even talk about it. There is also access land with no access to caves.

And that is EXACTLY why we need BCA to investigate access under the CRoW legislation! With regards to the landowner situation you just need to talk to them, earn their trust, respect their wishes. It's not rocket science!
 

Grizzlybear

New member
In reply to the peak district land owner. Whos taxes make available a great deal of the monies available so the eu can provide the subsidies that filter back to the dear whooly maggot farmers and heather growers of this country
 
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