lifelining the modern way

[damian]

sure its a few quid more but then a decent head lamp is a few quid more than holding a maglite in your teeth.

For me, and I imagine everyone else replying here, it has nothing to do with cost - I own 4 harnesses! Instead it is to do with comfort and ease when caving.

I have already explained why I am not worried about injury from falling a few centimentres onto a belt. If there was any chance of me falling further on a <10m pitch, the lifeline would be too slack .. and that's my fault as the climber, not the belayer's!

 

[whitelackington]

I wonder if the newish BCA have thought this through?

 

[whitelackington]

I think I will try and use s.r.t. as much as possible, so much less trouble than ladder & lifeline
but the bloody trouble is taking beginners or people who don't do srt.

 

[MSD]

If you use a (belay) belt, a simple precaution is to modify your tying-in procedure. Tie a fig-8 knot with the loop aout the size of your thigh. Tie a second, small fig-8 (or butterfly)  loop a few centiemters above the first loop. Put one leg through the (thigh-size) loop. Clip the second loop to your belay belt. Now if you fall the load is spread onto your thigh and the belt can't ride up and crush your chest.

You can even tie a double bowline or fig-8 and put one leg in each loop, for even better load-spreading. Obviously it might take a bit of practice to get the lengths right so that the load is spread appropriately. Unless the people on the trip are really different sizes you probably wouldn't need to re-tie the knots for each person.

The end result might not be as good as a real harness, but it's surely a lot better than just using a belt?

MArk

 

[graham]

If using belts was as dangerous as you suggest there would be accidents and injuries associated with there use.  I know of none.  Cavers 'love' belts because they are so damn useful, not because, as you seem to suggest, they are collectively stupid.  It's your choice to use a harness, and there are many benefits in using one, but the majority of cavers confronted with a short ladder pitch, and denied the use of a belt, will go back to bowlines around the middle.  This would hardly be a step forward.

Does anyone know of any incidents where a caver has suffered damage to internal organs after falling off a short (<10 m) pitch while using a lifeline attached to a 50 mm webbing belt (properly secured)?

 

[Les W]

I wonder if the newish BCA have thought this through?

The "newish" BCA are well aware of the limitations of belay belts and belay techniques in general.
As they (BCA Training Committee) are responsible for the training and syllabus of the UK's caving instructors I am certain that their advice will be complete and accurate and will take account of all of the issues. If you want to read the syllabuses (syllabi? pendant?) they are available for download on the BCA Website at http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=7

 

[cap n chris]

You wait for a syllabus for ages and then a whole load of them arrive all at once.

 

[ChrisB]

The reason shops don't call them "belay belts" is not a fear of compensation claims. It's more direct than that. It's illegal to sell PPE which is not CE marked; you can't CE mark a belay belt as there is no standard for them as PPE. Even if all you were going to do with the belt was put it in a museum, the shopkeeper could be prosecuted for selling it to you as a belay belt.

 

[Hammy]

They are now sold as "very strong battery belts" (wink-wink)!

For your 20 stone battery sir! (that will be an oldham then...) Oh how the lawyers are rubbing hands in glee at what they have reduced us too. No such thing as common sense in law. For legal reasons! We need a new 'name' for the belt, like 'assisted hand line belt' or 'assisted support belt' words that have nothing to do with vertical rope work as such but gives the impression of a pre-loaded support belt! - THATS IT "Pre-loaded Support belt"....

I think you'll find that the technical term you are looking for is 'Work Positioning Belt' - a few examples being...

http://www.ppsafety.co.uk/browse.php?id=11&sub_id=5
http://www.heightsafetyuk.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=9_53
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/ProProduits?Produit=498

Of course these are all more sophisticated versions than cavers are after but the principal is that the belt prevents the user moving into a situation where they may be suspended on the rope by keeping them on a ledge or whatever.

From a cavers perspective it is important to know the limitations of ones equipment and since the issue of being suspended in a waistbelt for any length of time whatsoever is a pretty serious one then it is essential to be very clued up on the subject.

Several options for improvising harness arrangements have been discussed on here and all of these have their place but they are exactly that...improvised. Wearing a harness for vertical caving on ladders enables hauling of tired/exhausted/injured cavers and in situations where things have gone slightly astray maybe involving inexperienced belayers/cavers etc. and I would contend it is better, though not essential, to use a sit harness for laddering whatever the size of the pitch. Belts are fine for very short steps/slopes/climbs etc. in caves but that is all.

When I first started rock climbing in the mid 70s most climbers tied on round the waist with a bowline and were just careful not to fall off when leading! Things have moved on somewhat since then!!

 

[Dep]

...
and I would contend it is better, though not essential, to use a sit harness for laddering whatever the size of the pitch. Belts are fine for very short steps/slopes/climbs etc. in caves but that is all.

When I first started rock climbing in the mid 70s most climbers tied on round the waist with a bowline and were just careful not to fall off when leading! Things have moved on somewhat since then!!

Whilst it may be better from a safety point of view if it all goes wrong the fact is that you either have to provide a harness for everyone (expensive and definitely NOT entry-level equipment) or be swapping them around.

Have you ever sat there in vague exasperation watching a novice getting a belay belt on - imagine how long it would take the same numpty to sort out a harness - you'd be there all day, and the trip would invove a lot of faffing about and standing around and very little caving!

I too came into this in the days when the lifeliining method was a simple bowline around the chest - not even a safety knot!
I recall as a cadet showing others how to tie a bowline, and securing the other end to a railing with a clove-hitch and dangling over the edge to prove it worked. That I'm sitting here now shows it did, although I was of course protected by the immortality of youthful folly!

 

[Peter Burgess]

imagine how long it would take the same numpty to sort out a harness - you'd be there all day, and the trip would invove a lot of faffing about and standing around and very little caving!

I recall a trip to a certain Godstone mine with a shaft entrance, when we must have spent nearly half the evening waiting to either get in or get out, as harnesses were put on, taken off - I remember waiting so long to get back up, there was enough time to go off and do another mini-trip and take some photos while each person sorted themselves out. I am sure there was some sharing of gear - glad I was at the back as I could go off and do something interesting.

 

[graham]

If using belts was as dangerous as you suggest there would be accidents and injuries associated with there use.  I know of none.  Cavers 'love' belts because they are so damn useful, not because, as you seem to suggest, they are collectively stupid.  It's your choice to use a harness, and there are many benefits in using one, but the majority of cavers confronted with a short ladder pitch, and denied the use of a belt, will go back to bowlines around the middle.  This would hardly be a step forward.

Does anyone know of any incidents where a caver has suffered damage to internal organs after falling off a short (<10 m) pitch while using a lifeline attached to a 50 mm webbing belt (properly secured)?

I'll take it that no-one does know of any such incidents, then.

 

[gus horsley]

If using belts was as dangerous as you suggest there would be accidents and injuries associated with there use.  I know of none.  Cavers 'love' belts because they are so damn useful, not because, as you seem to suggest, they are collectively stupid.  It's your choice to use a harness, and there are many benefits in using one, but the majority of cavers confronted with a short ladder pitch, and denied the use of a belt, will go back to bowlines around the middle.  This would hardly be a step forward.

Does anyone know of any incidents where a caver has suffered damage to internal organs after falling off a short (<10 m) pitch while using a lifeline attached to a 50 mm webbing belt (properly secured)?

I'll take it that no-one does know of any such incidents, then.

I don't know of anyone suffering damage to internal organs but I saw a bloke fall a few feet on a freehanging pitch with a belay belt on and he flipped upside down.  He was very lucky not to have fallen out of the belt or brained himself, helmet or not.

 

[gus horsley]

Incidentally, since I'm from eons ago (and reluctant to take on board newfangled ideas), I always used an Italian hitch on a krab when lifelining because the knot reverses itself.  Worked pretty well in most situations and had the added bonus of not having to cart excess kit around.  Also, I'm tight with money.

 

[Peter Burgess]

This is a bit like the seat belts in cars debate. You're more likely to die if you don't have a seat-belt (don't have a lifeline and fall off a pitch), but the standard seat-belt is not necessarily going to stop you from getting injured. Undoubtedly there are better seat belt designs that the standard fitting, but most of us accept the standard seat belt as 'fit for purpose' and accept that it may well prevent us from getting killed. Also, a poorly fitted seat belt may well do you more harm than good. I suggest you use whatever you consider reduces the risk to an acceptable level, and lifeline properly to minimise what risk remains.

 

[whitelackington]

What scientific proof do you have for your statements :idea:

 

[Peter Burgess]

Pop down to the TRL - they are almost next door to you. I am sure they'd be happy to enlighten you.

 

[paul]

In the case where the argument is for always wearing a harness when climbing a ladder - if the harness used is designed for SRT (which I suggest will be the vast majority in use unnderground) and hence has a lower attachment point than a harness designed for climbing, should the caver also wear a belt which is connected to the harness with a large karabiner in order to raise the attachment point and prevent inversion when falling off?

If so, a "belay" belt will still be worn anyway...

 

[gus horsley]

A sling round the chest attached to a belay belt with a krab should stop inversions and also absorbs the impact better.  it's a bit Heath Robinson but was used for ages.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

In the case where the argument is for always wearing a harness when climbing a ladder - if the harness used is designed for SRT (which I suggest will be the vast majority in use unnderground) and hence has a lower attachment point than a harness designed for climbing, should the caver also wear a belt which is connected to the harness with a large karabiner in order to raise the attachment point and prevent inversion when falling off?

If so, a "belay" belt will still be worn anyway...

Yes, SRT harnesses are designed to sit lower than climbing harnesses but if you adjust the waist strap to sit above the hips there's not actually a whole lot of difference.  And you will find climbing instructors who consider all sit-harnesses should be used in conjunction with chest harnesses....  Where does it all stop?