lifelining the modern way

[Hatstand]

Isn't the trick getting people to use lifelines in the first place, whatever method??? 

 

[Dep]

Isn't the trick getting people to use lifelines in the first place, whatever method??? 

A fair comment! 

 

[darkplaces]

I think ladders are bad things anyway but I guess Keep It Simple Stupid...  A lot of over thinking the problem going on here, ooo some of you need to put down them stats and to use what you know. If your experienced at using a climbers belay, then fine, its not ideal 'apparently' but the point is you know how to work it which is better then fumbling with a grigri or stop for the 1st time. Me I prefer to use a STOP mounted upside down above the pitch head to life line people, I know how to use it, the different ways of threading it, have experience using it so I'll use it.

It is my firm view that at least one person should be fully kitted in SRT to enable some kind of rescue from the ladder/lifeline. Its not unlikly to be hanging unable to go up or down for some reason. If people don't have the kit what are they to do.

Ladders are for the oldies  :tease:

 

[gus horsley]

Ladders are for the oldies  :tease:

I must be a mega-oldie.  My first trips were on a ROPE ladder.  And lifelines were HEMP, tied run the waist with a bowline.  I kid you not.  I did Diccan this way and the bloody stuff weighed tons.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think there is too much pressure on people to do things 'the right way', when perhaps we just need to step back and consider just exactly what it is we are all doing. We are exploring caves. The trip will probably have been organised by an individual, or perhaps a couple of people. They know what it is they want to do, whether it's take some new cavers underground, or to go off digging somewhere perhaps. Why can we just not leave it up to the organiser/leader to decide how they are going to run their trip without making judgement from our armchairs about how they are going to do it? Provided they are not putting anyone at an unacceptable risk (subjective matter), why should anyone make adverse comments about how they do it? If the two guys are happy with ladders and lines, great. Let them get on with it - the risk is low provided they use the gear correctly. If they are taking new cavers underground and don't have SRT gear to hand out, then what's wrong with them using ladders/lifelines, provided they do so without putting anyone at an unacceptable risk? I go caving to get away from a world where we are constantly being told all the time what we should or should not do.

 

[gus horsley]

Good point Peter.  It's all about escapism in the safest possible way.  Which of course varies from person to person.

 

[darkplaces]

Yeah at the same time the youngsters like me.... er (cough)mid 30s(cough) to pickup on the 'current best practice' as best practice changes (and to understand it does)... as we can see from the posts. I like Cap 'n Chris quote about new fangled gadits like helmets... heheh

 

[Hughie]

Depends on the sort of caving I suppose. If there's lots of big pitches SRT wins, an occasional pitch amidst much crawly stuff, then ladder and line. Wouldn't bother going to the lengths of using a stop - italian hitch is quite acceptable imho. Can even be tied easily and quickly with one hand. As with Peter and Gus, I go caving to escape all sorts of things - not to make sure I follow somebody elses perception of best practise.

 

[AndyF]

There is a reason that climbers don't use an Italian hitch for belaying! 

As for there being no advantages, only disadvantages, here is the question. You lifeline someone on a 2 ladder (60 ft ) pitch. You have to get the rope back up. It's quicker, IMHO, to pull the rope up through a stitch plate than to remove the Italian hitch, then retie it, and a lot less effort than feeding it up with the hitch is situ...

Stitch plates have proved functional over many years in arresting falls, can't see why they are not applicable to caving, other than tradition...

Why not give a sticht plate a try? It does work up as well as down, though down reaps the most advantages. You need an old afashioned one ideally with a single straight slot, and no silly spring thing.

 

[Dep]

I think there is too much pressure on people to do things 'the right way', when perhaps we just need to step back and consider just exactly what it is we are all doing. We are exploring caves. The trip will probably have been organised by an individual, or perhaps a couple of people. They know what it is they want to do, whether it's take some new cavers underground, or to go off digging somewhere perhaps. Why can we just not leave it up to the organiser/leader to decide how they are going to run their trip without making judgement from our armchairs about how they are going to do it? Provided they are not putting anyone at an unacceptable risk (subjective matter), why should anyone make adverse comments about how they do it? If the two guys are happy with ladders and lines, great. Let them get on with it - the risk is low provided they use the gear correctly. If they are taking new cavers underground and don't have SRT gear to hand out, then what's wrong with them using ladders/lifelines, provided they do so without putting anyone at an unacceptable risk? I go caving to get away from a world where we are constantly being told all the time what we should or should not do.

Well said!

 

[Dep]

...
It is my firm view that at least one person should be fully kitted in SRT to enable some kind of rescue from the ladder/lifeline. Its not unlikly to be hanging unable to go up or down for some reason. If people don't have the kit what are they to do.
...

If you're lining with a stop like that and someone falls off the ladder/rock, or the ladder fails, lock-off, give them  moment to sort themselves out; then, if they haven't or can't then smoothly lower them again to safey.
The odds are that if you own a stop you also own a hand-jammer, use this with your stop to make a Z-rig and hey presto up they come. (a pulley is a handy, although not essential thing to have too)
No need for an SRT rescue - you said yourself; keep it simple...

 

[Dep]

I forgot to add...
If you want to rescue someone up as described you don't necessarily have to lower them at all, the Zrig can be rigged from this position just as easily, and pretty quickly!

 

[wormster]

The trip will probably have been organized by an individual, or perhaps a couple of people. They know what it is they want to do, whether it's take some new cavers underground, or to go off digging somewhere perhaps. Why can we just not leave it up to the organizer/leader to decide how they are going to run their trip without making judgment from our armchairs about how they are going to do it?

Thank you Mr Burgess very succinctly put.

There's the old saying "Don't fix what ain't broke" Italian hitch, belay plate, reversed stop, if it works for you the go with it.

 

[andymorgan]

It's quicker, IMHO, to pull the rope up through a stitch plate than to remove the Italian hitch, then retie it, and a lot less effort than feeding it up with the hitch is situ...

..saving yourself all of 10 seconds, if it actually is quicker. I bet someone who does an Italian Hitch regularly will be just as quick.

Why not give a sticht plate a try?

If it 'aint boke, why fix it?

 

[Hammy]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned pulley jammer or Traxion/Pro Traxion as a method of belaying a ladder climber. These are capable of keeping up with a fast ladder climber and convert instantly to a hauling system. It is essential to know how to release these under load.

Italian hitch even in very well practiced hands is not as quick to take in, particularly on crusty caving ropes, and a Sticht/belay plate is also a slow method if used correctly, and neither of these are capable of giving any more assistance to a tired ladder climber than a tight rope.

I just think it's great if everbody knows the advantages and limitations of all these methods and applies the right technique at the right time which all comes down to robust training and plenty of experience. The dangers lie where people don't realise their own limitations.

 

[ian.p]

i dont think theres anything wrong with having best practice ie tried and tested methods which are known to work i also dont think best practice has to be the most complicated time consuming way of doing things. certainly imho thers a lot to be said for having standard basic methods for doing things which everyone knows and can tell when there are faults with it like the italian hitch method.
i dont think its a good idea to just say why are we botherd if a technique is potentialy dangeros at least theyre using a lifline if it doesnt work it might as well not be there.

 

[cap n chris]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned pulley jammer or Traxion/Pro Traxion as a method of belaying a ladder climber. These are capable of keeping up with a fast ladder climber and convert instantly to a hauling system. It is essential to know how to release these under load.

Fine if you're equipped with SRT gear as leader and lining the rest of the group on ladder but otherwise best steered clear of IM(H)O.

 

[Hammy]

Fine if you're equipped with SRT gear as leader and lining the rest of the group on ladder but otherwise best steered clear of IM(H)O.

It depends on your technical knowledge....there is no need to have a full SRT kit on to use these. I know of a couple of surface based applications with Traxions in use where the operator has nothing more than a spare krab to hand.....a quick Italian Hitch onto the dead rope and you can haul or lower no probs assuming you have a sit harness on. I'm not saying it isn't better with a Stop though....

 

[francis]

Lowering with an italian hitch is all very well after the pulley jammer has been unloaded, but how do you actually unload the jammer?  Do you tie the Italian hitch, lock it off and use leg strength to pull in a bit of rope so you can undo the cam on the pulley, then lower?

Francis

 

[cap n chris]

It depends on your technical knowledge.

Couldn't agree more - which is why I wouldn't consider mentioning it in the normal course of things - and which is why I feel it is only relevant if you're at a level of SRT competence. It's your can of worms, so you can explain to Francis how to do the unloading changeover!