lifelining the modern way

[paul]

There is a reason that climbers don't use an Italian hitch for belaying!  
[quoute]

Yes there is, you're right there.

In rock climbing it is possible for a leader to take a Fall Factor 2 fall (when the second is on a ledge and the leader falls from above the second, past him and is stopped by the full length of the rope between the leader and second assuming no runners have yet been placed).

Stopping such a large fall may not be possible with an Italian Hitch - but the extra friction provided by a Sticht Plate (or any of the other numerous designs based on a Sticht Plate) would make it possible.

Hopefully (!) belaying a caver on a ladder would not involve falls with such great force. In this case an Italian Hitch would be entirely suitable. There's a reason why climbers with dodgy belay anchors do not use a belay plate, too, as I said before.

As for there being no advantages, only disadvantages, here is the question. You lifeline someone on a 2 ladder (60 ft ) pitch. You have to get the rope back up. It's quicker, IMHO, to pull the rope up through a stitch plate than to remove the Italian hitch, then retie it, and a lot less effort than feeding it up with the hitch is situ...

It is much, MUCH quicker to leave the rope as it is, pull up the rope completely, tie another Italian Hitch, unclip the previous Italian hitch and replace it with the new one. There is no need to pull the rope through the karabiner via the Italian Hitch at all! I have never done so for a free unloaded rope unless it was 2 or 3 metres of slack.

Stitch plates have proved functional over many years in arresting falls, can't see why they are not applicable to caving, other than tradition...

Why not give a sticht plate a try? It does work up as well as down, though down reaps the most advantages. You need an old afashioned one ideally with a single straight slot, and no silly spring thing.

I learned how to use a Sticht Plate when I took up rock climbing back in 1985. I replaced my Sticht Plate with a Lowe Tuber and have been using that ever since WHEN ROCK CLIMBING - for the reason already mentioned.

The main disadvantage of belay plates - and a MAJOR one as far as I can see for use underground - is that they relay entirely on being able to pull the controlling rope past the plate so that the controlling rope is in line with the loaded rope and being pulled in the opposite direction so that the belay plate then traps the rope between itself and the krab thus introducing a lot of friction.

This means the belayer must be able to take in the rope from BEHIND the belay plate with respect to the loaded rope and therefore is best suited to an indirect belay (where the belayer is tied onto the anchors and the belay plate is attached in front of the belayer to the point where the rope is attached to the belayer's harness). Underground we tend to use direct belays (where the rope is belayed directly from the anchor and the belayer is attached seprarately to the anchor. In many cases there is not enough room to pull the controlling rope BEHIND the belay plate in order to arrest a fall.

With a Italian Hitch there is no need to pull the rope BEHIND the krab, only to grip the controlling rope more firmly. The direction is not critical so the belayer can operate the belay from either side of the krab and directly in front if needs be.

Seeing as you already have a krab attached to the anchor in order to use the belay plate, then why not simply tie an Italian Hitch and attach it directly to the krab? Why introduce an extra piece of equipment which is not really suitable (unless you prefer indirect belays when belaying cavers on ladders, assuming the stance and anchor positioning allows for this...)?

 

[paul]

Hmm... I buggered up the quoting on that last message!

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Hmm... I buggered up the quoting on that last message!

I agree with everything you tried to say!

 

[Hammy]

Lowering with an italian hitch is all very well after the pulley jammer has been unloaded, but how do you actually unload the jammer?  Do you tie the Italian hitch, lock it off and use leg strength to pull in a bit of rope so you can undo the cam on the pulley, then lower?

Francis

It's body weight that you use not leg strength. You need to be aware that if the climber is much heavier than the belayer then this becomes more difficult, therefore experimentation in a non critical situation is most advisable!

That can of worms wasn't too difficult eh!

 

[MSD]

With sufficeint skill and knowledge it's possible to get out of extremey tricky situations. However, it's better to apply that skill and knowledge in avoiding the tricky situations in the first pace. Lifelining with a traxion or any other jammer is a bad idea. It isn't quick or easy to release the person (especially a heavy person). A mini-traxion has a friction coefficient of 1.4. So if you have a 100kg guy on the end you will need to apply 140kg to realease them. I weigh 70kg. Building a sysytem which will allow me to apply double my body weight is not going to be easy, especially if I have to improvise and t he oitch head is maybe awkward. I have no doubt that I'd manage it by hook or by crook, but I'm sure I would be cursing under my breath!

Furthermore, a serious fall onto a jammer will not do the rope any good. OK, your answer to that will be that "I always keep the lifeline tight". Suppose the line gets stuck (so you think it's tight), perhaps when the person climbing gets tired and takes a rest. The the person carries on climbing higher without telling the lifeiner, realises that the lifeline has gone loose and panicks?

Basically a jammer on its own is NOT a suitable piece of equipment for lifelining. A friction hitch is a suitable technique, but must be used with care, since letting go of the upstream rope is a safety concern. If you want to make it completey fool proof, feed the upstream rope through an jammer anchored with a second tied-off friction hitch. Now you can't drop the person. If they fall, it's simple enough to realease the second hitch, take the jammer off and lower away. The force applied to the jammer on even a serious fall will be small.

With respect to the speed question, the solution is simple. Don't climb faster than the lifeliner can take in. OK, Some people (incuding me in my day) can race up ladders. But I have NEVER seen a beginner that can climb faster than I can take in on a friction hitch. People that can race up ladders know better than to go faster than the lifelining team can handle (two or more people can lifeline much faster than one, so speed kings can still have their day, even with friction hitches).

Once again folks, do not even think about using a jammer on its own for lifelining.

Mark

 

[whitelackington]

I would not like to see a 100kilo person dangling on a life line,
just by a battery belt

I reckon they would be in a very dangerous state in a second

 

[Hughie]

I would not like to see a 100kilo person dangling on a life line,
just by a battery belt

I reckon they would be in a very dangerous state in a second

Better to be dangling than - errrr..... falling?

 

[paul]

With sufficeint skill and knowledge it's possible to get out of extremey tricky situations. However, it's better to apply that skill and knowledge in avoiding the tricky situations in the first pace. Lifelining with a traxion or any other jammer is a bad idea. It isn't quick or easy to release the person (especially a heavy person).

Furthermore, a serious fall onto a jammer will not do the rope any good. OK, your answer to that will be that "I always keep the lifeline tight". Suppose the line gets stuck (so you think it's tight), perhaps when the person climbing gets tired and takes a rest. The the person carries on climbing higher without telling the lifeiner, realises that the lifeline has gone loose and panicks?

Basically a jammer on its own is NOT a suitable piece of equipment for lifelining. A friction hitch is a suitable technique, but must be used with care, since letting go of the upstream rope is a safety concern. If you want to make it completey fool proof, feed the upstream rope through an jammer anchored with a second tied-off friction hitch. Now you can't drop the person. If they fall, it's simple enough to realease the second hitch, take the jammer off and lower away. The force applied to the jammer on even a serious fall will be small.

I agree with all you say. Pulley-jammer combinations (whether separate pulleys and jammers or combined as with the Traxion or Mini-Traxion) have their uses certainly but not for the way described for lifelining, for the reasons you give.

Use a Stop (many cavers have one of these) or Grigri which will alow you to let go of the rope if you need to (but you should still lock off). You can then fish out that pulley+jammer or Mini-traxion and quickly set up a Z-rig if you need to (as pointed out already).

If you haven't got a Stop, then use an Italian Hitch, which can still be safely locked off to alow you to hands free but doesn't help in setting up a Z-rig directly.

 

[Cave_Troll]

I would not like to see a 100kilo person dangling on a life line,
just by a battery belt

Better to be dangling than - errrr..... falling?

If you crash your car into a wall. It is better to have a lap belt seatbelt than nothing. However , much more preferable would be a 3 point shoulder belt and an air bag. Even if they are a bit more expensive.

As far as i am concerned, the same arguments apply to belay belts vs harness.

People who say "i'm a safe driver, i've never crashed why do i need a seat belt?" are conning themselves...

 

[cucc Paul]

Yay controversy. Assisted handlines are fast on ladders. Pass a rope down which is anchored to the pitch head, rope passed through screw gate on a belt attached to the climber and then back up to the top and though an italian hitch, (or daringly body belayed or daring even further just held in hands). This setup can be easily turned into a hauling system with a bit of know how, and ensures you have twice the amount of rope you need to belay people up the ladder from the bottom.

 

[Piglet]

I would not like to see a 100kilo person dangling on a life line,
just by a battery belt

I reckon they would be in a very dangerous state in a second

Better to be dangling than - errrr..... falling?

I've dangled on battery belt (story in another thread) and within seconds I couldn't breathe  :blink:.  I definitely don't recommend it. 

 

[Hammy]

Furthermore, a serious fall onto a jammer will not do the rope any good. OK, your answer to that will be that "I always keep the lifeline tight". Suppose the line gets stuck (so you think it's tight), perhaps when the person climbing gets tired and takes a rest. The the person carries on climbing higher without telling the lifeiner, realises that the lifeline has gone loose and panicks?

I absolutely agree that any dynamic fall onto a toothed ascender or Traxion is not good at all.

The whole point of being a lifeline operator is understanding that the rope needs to be taken in tight regardless of whether or not they have been 'told' to, and to ensure that it doesn't get stuck by thoughtful rigging. We are getting back to skill and experience.

If a fall occurred with an Italian hitch or Stop it would be a pretty serious issue too though less likely to lead to rope failure, though the climber may well suffer internal organ damage, particularly onto a waistbelt as most seem to advocate for laddering on here.

You can haul a tired or incapacipated caver with a Stop but it is much more difficult than with a ProTraxion and with an Italian Hitch it is well nigh impossible.

My vote is for sit harnesses and experienced and well trained lifeline operators!

 

[Geoff R]

It surely  "all depends"

Owning a mini traxion and most certainly having used it for lifelining and having practiced before hand in the gym with a hightly experianced person showing me quite clearly how this is done and the pitfalls, my vote is that with the right knowledge, experiance and equipment, it is perfectly safe to use a mini traxion and a rapid emergency ascent or descent can be quickly rigged and undertaken AND MOST IMPORTANT IN THESE SKILL CIRCUMSTANCES its most clearly a really >easy< device to use for normal lifeline ascents! 

BUT I emphasis ALL the above points need to apply 
AND no short cuts on carrying and wearing the right gear for the emergency circumstances !

Geoff
 

 

[Dep]

Damn I posted to the thread yesterday but it has gone - so I suppose I must have not hit POST - Doh!

I do a lot of trips where I have to line people... I try to use as many dfferent methods as possible to see which works best in different situations...

I have to vote the Stop as my personal favourite all-rounder. The only reason I don't use it more often is that it is my only stop and my personal SRT one too so I don't want to wear it out unecessarily. Next time I buy club kit I will probably grab a Caving Supplies ex-military stop for about £25.
Usually I use my gri-gri instead, but I find that after lining down several people the awkward lever makes my hand ache.

I borrowed GeoffR's traxion recently in a narrow smooth concrete lined shaft, (55ft of ladder rapidly and easily climbed with your back against the wall) and I used the traxion to line up quickly people who are fairly experienced at ladder climbing, (and had various other bits and bobs to hand just in case)
In this application it's a very nice device indeed, this is a ladder pitch that can be climbed very quickly indeed.

I used to use plain jammers at first until someone took me aside and pointed out that I could not switch to lower that
easily - and that all lifeline systems should give the lifeliner 'options' to go up, down or lock off.
Generally jammers don't do this and shouldn't be used in this way - but there are exceptions as I described above.

Horses for courses.

Mark: I liked your idea of using a jammer to back up a non-locking belay such as an Italian hitch or fig-8