lifelining the modern way

[Peter Burgess]

Where does it all stop?

Wherever the individual wants it to.

 

[Geoff R]

Surely this subject is all a non issue provided we only talk about informed and relatively experienced club cavers.

We will continue to wear strong battery belts and have a crab handy. 

Im told a 4ft sling and crab is a good idea for everyone to have with them on trips. Those who prefer more protection at their choice have the personal means to make a sling harness. 

For known problem trips (or again personal choice) individuals can choose to bring a full harness as well 

Surely there is no difference time wise using any of the above as the caver can easily kit themselves out while another climbs. 

What I think people would find most objectionable would be if anyone in the group tried to bring pressure (making fun or ridicule) on someone NOT to use more advanced protection of their choice. 

 

[andymorgan]

Incidentally, since I'm from eons ago (and reluctant to take on board newfangled ideas), I always used an Italian hitch on a krab when lifelining because the knot reverses itself.  Worked pretty well in most situations and had the added bonus of not having to cart excess kit around.  Also, I'm tight with money.

So is there any other way of lifelining?

 

[Hughie]

Incidentally, since I'm from eons ago (and reluctant to take on board newfangled ideas), I always used an Italian hitch on a krab when lifelining because the knot reverses itself.  Worked pretty well in most situations and had the added bonus of not having to cart excess kit around.  Also, I'm tight with money.

So is there any other way of lifelining?

I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than that.

 

[Geoff R]

I think the song goes

  ..... the only way is down, yer baby  :

 

[ian.p]

i thought the italian hitch belay was the new fangled way of liflineing replacing replacing the body belay

 

[Dep]

imagine how long it would take the same numpty to sort out a harness - you'd be there all day, and the trip would invove a lot of faffing about and standing around and very little caving!

I recall a trip to a certain Godstone mine with a shaft entrance, when we must have spent nearly half the evening waiting to either get in or get out, as harnesses were put on, taken off - I remember waiting so long to get back up, there was enough time to go off and do another mini-trip and take some photos while each person sorted themselves out. I am sure there was some sharing of gear - glad I was at the back as I could go off and do something interesting.

Yes indeed - I'll never forget that one. Probably a total of three hours for me spent getting 8 people up and down a 55ft smooth concrete lined shaft. One or two people new to SRT, and a few who weren't and should have known better!
I was seething at the end of it.
Had a similar experience recently - both people who wasted time SRTing admitted to me afterwards that they had realised ladders were quicker on ascent! I love it when someone 'discovers' what you already know!

And your seat-belt analogy is a good one Peter.

 

[cap n chris]

i thought the italian hitch belay was the new fangled way of liflineing replacing replacing the body belay

Given that body belaying was largely discredited in the 1970s, what century do you live in?

I'd hardly say that the Italian Hitch lifelining method was "new fangled".

 

[whitelackington]

Malcolm Cotter recently told me (after we had just dropped Cow hole a year ago )
that he used to teach beginners ladder lifelinning in Cow Hole

shocking eh.


BODY LIFE LINING TOO

 

[ian.p]

i thought the italian hitch belay was the new fangled way of liflineing replacing replacing the body belay

Given that body belaying was largely discredited in the 1970s, what century do you live in?

I'd hardly say that the Italian Hitch lifelining method was "new fangled".

try telling me dad that.........

 

[cap n chris]

"In 1971, Royal Robbins, in his landmark book "Basic Rockcraft", describes only the "body belay" where the belayer's body, braced in the correct position and perhaps anchored, provided the necessary friction for a dynamic belay of the lead or following climber who was tied into the rope by a bowline on a coil or a swami belt alone.  Rappels described by Robbins were the dulfersitz or long rappels controlled by a "brake" assembled from six to eight oval carabiners with gates opposed.  The traditional mountaineer at least knows and has practiced the super easy, super fast body belays.  I never had to use the clumsy carabiner brake.

By 1973, Royal Robbins published "Advanced Rockcraft" including a chapter titled "Gadgets". Robbins wrote "Although I personally prefer climbing methods that are spare, there are climbers (and the number is growing) who see advantages in equipment not strictly necessary".  The Gadgets Robbins described were Safety Helmets, Seat and Chest Harnesses, Descenders (the figure eight) and the Sticht Belay Plate."

Is this your Dad, by any chance? -

 

[AndyF]

If I bother with lifelining (JOKE!) then I tend to use a stitch plate, but mounted at the lifeline anchor pont, rather than off the waist. Much faster, and less tiring than an Italian hitch. I'll clip the same anchor piont with a cowstail, so I can disconnect if necessary.

Gives full control up or down, and you can whizz the line back up v.fast, which you can't do with a hitch. You need the right stitch plate that will work with stiffer caving rope, put it works really well.

Someone can now tell me thats a real bad idea...

 

[Andy Sparrow]

If I bother with lifelining (JOKE!) then I tend to use a stitch plate, but mounted at the lifeline anchor pont, rather than off the waist. Much faster, and less tiring than an Italian hitch. I'll clip the same anchor piont with a cowstail, so I can disconnect if necessary.

Gives full control up or down, and you can whizz the line back up v.fast, which you can't do with a hitch. You need the right stitch plate that will work with stiffer caving rope, put it works really well.

Someone can now tell me thats a real bad idea...

Hmmm, yes, you're not going to like this...  I think you are using your sticht plate incorrectly.  It has to be belayed at waist height and used with a four point hand action - and this is anything but fast!  Refer to Cave Safe 2 or Speleo-Vertical for a full explanantion....

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I should also perhaps add that some years ago we had a cave rescue on Mendip after a accident was caused by eaxactly the technique you describe.

 

[AndyF]

If I bother with lifelining (JOKE!) then I tend to use a stitch plate, but mounted at the lifeline anchor pont, rather than off the waist. Much faster, and less tiring than an Italian hitch. I'll clip the same anchor piont with a cowstail, so I can disconnect if necessary.

Gives full control up or down, and you can whizz the line back up v.fast, which you can't do with a hitch. You need the right stitch plate that will work with stiffer caving rope, put it works really well.

Someone can now tell me thats a real bad idea...

Hmmm, yes, you're not going to like this...  I think you are using your sticht plate incorrectly.   It has to be belayed at waist height and used with a four point hand action - and this is anything but fast!  Refer to Cave Safe 2 or Speleo-Vertical for a full explanantion....

I know about the four point hand action, but it is really applicable to belaying a lead climber up a pitch The key thing is that you are feeding out slack rope to a lead climber, to avoid twanging him off. He does not want to be pulling the rope up on each move. Hence you need to explicitly feed slack rope out using this action.

Belaying someone down a ladder allows a different technique, as the weight of the climber provides the "pull" that keeps the rope feeding. As a result, the slack rope side of the plate can be kept looped back behind the plate, and allowed to run through under the weight of the guy on the ladder. (The rope is forming as "S"through the plate if you get me). This is the perfect sticht plate protection format.

A fall will generally cause an instant lock on the plate, due to the automatic tensioning up of the plate against the krab.

It does take knowledge and skill with the device, but many years of rock climbing (and catching many, many lead climb falls) I feel I know the device well enough to use in this way.

You do indeed need to have a low lifeline anchor point relative to you, the "S" doesn't work if its above waist height, and not all rigs allow for this. This is analogous to the "waist" height use, and I have used the waist fixing on other occaisions, but still with a means of removing myself (an attachment to anchor, sticht plate and belay belt forming a three point arranngement, but loaded primarily onto the anchor)

I have caught one peel off using this method (handhold broke off a climb). It definitely worked!

 

[Dep]

...
Surely there is no difference time wise using any of the above as the caver can easily kit themselves out while another climbs. 
...

In theory no, but in practice yes as some people spend ages farting about with what should be very very simple stuff.
Not really a problem if each individual has their kit ready to go, but a pain in the proverbial if you have to swap kit about, and lifeline whilst also trying to supervise the next person getting their kit on.

Having said that the same is true for belay belts too - it can be a nuisance swapping these over too.

...
What I think people would find most objectionable would be if anyone in the group tried to bring pressure (making fun or ridicule) on someone NOT to use more advanced protection of their choice. 

True. the only exception I can think of is when the people have been told it's a lifelined ladder trip and still turn up in full SRT regalia, and then despite being told this, take longer faffing about than they would if they'd just clipped onto the line and climbed the ladder as directed! This isn't a hypothetical comment - I've seen it happen.

 

[Geoff R]

Surely this subject is all a non issue provided we only talk about informed and relatively experienced club cavers.

AND

What I think people would find most objectionable would be if anyone in the group tried to bring pressure (making fun or ridicule) on someone NOT to use more advanced protection of their choice.   

Hi Dep  you missed out my clarification right at the start of my comments - of course things are very different when talking about non-practiced people.

I guess there could be some situations where practiced people may well turn up in SRT gear on a deep ladder trip, such as if they were planning to self lifeline specifically to help the trip leader.  I guess by one or two people having SRT gear on, it could also add to group safety.   

 

[Andy Sparrow]

If I bother with lifelining (JOKE!) then I tend to use a stitch plate, but mounted at the lifeline anchor pont, rather than off the waist. Much faster, and less tiring than an Italian hitch. I'll clip the same anchor piont with a cowstail, so I can disconnect if necessary.

Gives full control up or down, and you can whizz the line back up v.fast, which you can't do with a hitch. You need the right stitch plate that will work with stiffer caving rope, put it works really well.

Someone can now tell me thats a real bad idea...

Hmmm, yes, you're not going to like this...  I think you are using your sticht plate incorrectly.  It has to be belayed at waist height and used with a four point hand action - and this is anything but fast!  Refer to Cave Safe 2 or Speleo-Vertical for a full explanantion....

I know about the four point hand action, but it is really applicable to belaying a lead climber up a pitch The key thing is that you are feeding out slack rope to a lead climber, to avoid twanging him off. He does not want to be pulling the rope up on each move. Hence you need to explicitly feed slack rope out using this action.

Belaying someone down a ladder allows a different technique, as the weight of the climber provides the "pull" that keeps the rope feeding. As a result, the slack rope side of the plate can be kept looped back behind the plate, and allowed to run through under the weight of the guy on the ladder. (The rope is forming as "S"through the plate if you get me). This is the perfect sticht plate protection format.

A fall will generally cause an instant lock on the plate, due to the automatic tensioning up of the plate against the krab.

It does take knowledge and skill with the device, but many years of rock climbing (and catching many, many lead climb falls) I feel I know the device well enough to use in this way.

You do indeed need to have a low lifeline anchor point relative to you, the "S" doesn't work if its above waist height, and not all rigs allow for this. This is analogous to the "waist" height use, and I have used the waist fixing on other occaisions, but still with a means of removing myself (an attachment to anchor, sticht plate and belay belt forming a three point arranngement, but loaded primarily onto the anchor)

I have caught one peel off using this method (handhold broke off a climb). It definitely worked!

You wrote in your original post that the sticht plate "Gives full control up or down" but you are now talking specifically about belaying downwards.  I maintain the view that a sticht plate used for belaying upwards must be used with the 4 point hand action - and that this is too slow to keep up with a ladder cimber. 

 

[Dep]

...
Hi Dep  you missed out my clarification right at the start of my comments - of course things are very different when talking about non-practiced people.
...

No I understood what you meant.

...turn up in SRT gear on a deep ladder trip, such as if they were planning to self lifeline specifically to help the trip leader...
...

Sorry mate, but I didn't find it at all helpful - nor did it save any time or make things easier - quite the reverse in fact.
You can't self-line unless the shaft is rigged that way and it wasn't! So time was wasted re-rigging for the benefit of the minority rather than just doing as directed which is the tried and tested way at that shaft which I have done many times! Pleased and impressed I was not!

I guess by one or two people having SRT gear on, it could also add to group safety.   

How?
Bearing in kind that the person organising and leading the trip also had the foresight to bring the required kit himself?
And that the shaft is too narrow to pass someone.

 

[paul]

Here's my thought on the subject of lifelining for what it's worth:

What technique is used depends on various factors: length of pitch, experience of party, quality of belay anchor, etc.

I can see no advantage of using a sticht plate (or any other similar device) as opposed to an Italian Hitch, only disadvantages.

Even an Italian Hitch may not be suitable in certain circumstances: for example where you may have to quickly change to a haul rig, in which case a Stop (or similar auto-lock device) would be better.

Even the body-belay has its place where belays are suspect and the person being lifelined is more likely to slide as opposed to fall - not likely underground (hopefully anchors will be bombproof) but is used on low graded snow/ice climbs where absorbing some of the shock of the slide by applying the body-belay will help protect the belay anchor.