• The Derbyshire Caver, No. 158

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Looks like rain....

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I really don't want to criticise anybody (honestly) but, just to give an alternative view to the above posting, I think the forecast for about 3 days beforehand for Saturday afternoon was really not very good. This is just a statement of fact - NOT a criticism of anybody. What matters is that everyone involved is OK.
 

dunc

New member
Nor do I want to criticise the above posting, I'm sure the weather forecast was iffy (hence why we didn't hang about on our trip) but I don't recall seeing weather warnings like the warnings I saw on the met-office website when I got home..
 

kay

Well-known member
I was looking at the met office site and at metcheck on Friday about midday, considering whether to spend an afternoon walking in the Dales before heading to the Diggers Dinner. At that point there weren't any severe weather warnings, just a pretty miserable Sat afternoon, with metcheck forecasting about 3/4in, certainly not the nearly 2in that Pitlamp recorded. Did the weather forecasts get worse after that?
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
On Thursday evening I had a phone chat about the forecasted appalling weekend weather as it had a bearing on a planned caving trip on Saturday. Guess other people were relying on their dried seaweed hung in the corner.
 

dunc

New member
Or to put it another way it seems just slightly odd that (I'm aware of) 6 different groups totalling ~57 cavers were unaware of the appalling weather that was going to hit the Dales on the Saturday afternoon.....
 

GemmaJones

New member
docfunk said:
There were 25 including the 2 on the ireby II side down there
Dan - I take it you and James went down Ireby then?  Glad I declined the offer...as much as I loved the last Grand Day Out, I did think the weather forecast was pretty rubbish for this weekend.  It's been glorious weather back in the toon today though!  Glad everyone is out and safe from the sounds of the CRO web page.  4 rescues in one night isn't good going!
 

docfunk

Member
No I had to work so I missed all the action and James was in the Helwith,But my inside info is from one of the people who was stranded down there.
 

georgenorth

Active member
It really was exceptionally wet in Ireby Fell Caverns yesterday. There was some gear left on a mudbank above the Duke Street Sump that had been there for at least a year before it got washed away by the flood yesterday evening.
 
M

MSD

Guest
Just a comment. If you look back over all the cave resuces the CRO/UWFRA have attended in the last 12 months, flooding incidents are a very substantial proportion. It's also the third time in the UK in about the same time frame that divers have had to be used to rescue people trapped by floods. I think all of us should bear those statistics in mind when planning caving trips. The golden rule about the cave still being there next week or next month is the key!

Mark
 

dunc

New member
Just a comment. If you look back over all the cave resuces the CRO/UWFRA have attended in the last 12 months, flooding incidents are a very substantial proportion. It's also the third time in the UK in about the same time frame that divers have had to be used to rescue people trapped by floods. I think all of us should bear those statistics in mind when planning caving trips. The golden rule about the cave still being there next week or next month is the key!
Perhaps our weather has become more unpredictable over the last 12 months and it might just stay that way. The recent Hospital Cave rescue was the result of a ropey weather forecast IIRC. As I work outdoors I usually keep an eye on weather forecasts, I've certainly noticed a fair few instances where they have been off the mark...
 

Smithers

New member
You should have seen the water coming down the river outside the Helwith Bridge pub on Saturday night Gemma, a couple more feet and it would have been in through the windows.

I'm suprised Colin didn't have someone bailing out the cellar with the beer handpumps it was that high!
 

Yve

New member
Hi Chris. Dans inside info is because Got stuck down there for about 18 hours. I was so knackered by the time we got out but everyone was fine. Glad that everyone was experienced cavers and we were just caught out. CRO said more water went down Ireby on sunday thanit ever had in one day in the last 3 years. But its not put me off, i met a lot of really nice people down there so the caving will continue!
 

Ed W

Member
Interesting debate over why flood related rescues seem to be on the up (are they really, or is this just perception?).  I would suggest that by and large the short term forecast information that cavers can receive is far better today than it has ever been.  However, in the 20+ years I have been caving I seem to have the impression that cavers have become more blase about flood risks.  Perhaps ths is a reflection on better techniques and equipment that allow people to cope with harsher conditions inderground?  Or is it that people have been chancing their arm and getting away with it?

One particular incident springs to mind where I was chastised by a relative newcomer to the sport for avoiding Swildons Hole on a day when a severe weather warning for heavy rain was in force for the Priddy area.  I was told that "Swildons doesn't flood".  As it happened the rain wasn't that severe and the cave was merely sporting.  A fact that was rubbed into me later on in the Hunters.  However, seeing some of the photos of Swildons in flood on this forum lately suggest that my advisor was probably taking a fairly big risk.  However, by getting away with it their experience that Swildons is safe in flood was reinforced.

Perhaps there is an element of our busy lives happening here, in that people with very little time to go out and play are less likely to miss a trip planned many months in advance?

I don't think that cavers should be chastised for taking risks, that is one of the major points of the sport (so long as the risks are well thought out and assessed).  However you may gamble correctly many times, but once wrong is more than enough...
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Well said, Ed. It's wrong to be criticised for making a cautious decision based on your own perception of risk. How dare someone apply peer pressure to anyone as you describe just because they have a less cautious approach to the risks. If they want to play Russian roulette with their own safety, they should at least leave their friends out of it. (This is in no way a criticism of anyone going underground this weekend - I wasn't there and did not have to make such a judgement for myself). But maybe a bit of light-hearted ribbing about it is part of the cavers' social environment - as long as it isn't taken seriously by either party.
 

Hatstand

New member
I caped my trip to Longwood on Sunday after a night's heavy rain, (and a brief conversation with another, far more experienced than I*) but I do wish I had gone and had a look, just at the entrance - just to see how much water actually _was_ around.

*Helmore: What are you up to today?
Hatstand: Well I want to go to Longwood...
Helmore: No you don't!

Still - Sparrah sold a few bits instead...  :doubt:
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Mr Fell said:
Ireby's not the place to be when it is wet. Wonder why they dident  cancel? I was in Kendal and Windermere yesterday and got soaked. I had :-\ wondereded if `The grand day out' had gone head or not - seems it had !

One notable caver who was involved said that they had seen that the weather forecast wasn't good, but thought there would be safety in numbers... (I think his tongue may have been in his cheek!).

It was certainly impressive down there. The sump had risen by a metre, and even by the time that we got down, there were waterfalls coming out of various holes I wasn't aware existed around the Well Pitch aven. Bell Pitch wasn't too bad with sheeting stopping the water from getting out too far, and there was just about airspace in the calcite duck.

All in all, it was an invigorating trip.
 
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